Ironically, David Spade is almost 48 years old.
Can’t speak for high schools but Mac is the #1 choice in my uni by far.
That’s fine for us but just don’t post some stupid statements about Linux like…
[quote=“princec,post:170,topic:39083”]
or…
- As already said, ca. 20 times, you are not forced to use a GUI, GUI is an option which you have almost always. Of course there is the command line but that’s because Linux is also a server OS which can be used without a GUI. You know, you can save some resources when you kick some unused stuff. And a GUI is not necessary on a server…
- You have front ends for iptables: firehol, Firestarter, guidedog, kmyfirewall, pyroman, shorewall. Enough? You just showed again that you have no idea what Linux is and how it works.
- You also have a front end for ufw: Gufw http://gufw.tuxfamily.org/
- You just need to open your eyes. Right click on the window bar of Chrome and select the last option with native window and title bar.
- If you don’t like it, you can uninstall the menu bar. As I said, the menu bar was created to save some vertical space on 16:9 screens with low resolutions. For example. In Windows you need ca. 50px for the panel, 25px the title bar and 25px for the window. So you need 100px, in Ubuntu you just need 25px. So 100px of for example 768px which lets you only 660px to work, against 740px in Ubuntu. The global menu is nice especially on notebooks. And if you have a big screen you can deactivate it.
You haven’t read anything. You can do this in Ubuntu or almost every other distribution too. Right click on file, “Extract here”, ready. Out of the box.
amsn is not available for Ubuntu anymore, so you probably downloaded an older package and it’s also not available for 64bit. The latest package you can find is in Oneiric. You should blame amsn devs for that. They are probably like you, they poop on Linux. Where did you get the package? The easiest solution would be Empathy or Pidgin. Empathy is preinstalled and can handle more than MSN.
[quote=“concerto49,post:173,topic:39083”]
Yep, that’s personal.
Why did you download the drivers? They are already in the repository. You can activate them easily in the system settings under “Additional drivers”, it’s just one click!
And why?
Actually Gnome has buttons on the right. You probably installed Gnome-Classic. And of course you can move them to the right. You can do this in gconf although it’s a little tricky. Hey, but at least you can use GUI for that. 
http://lifehacker.com/5500577/move-ubuntus-window-buttons-back-to-the-right
What packages?
You get that for example with KDE. Installing themes with Ubuntu requires few manual steps, just look on DevianArt for themes and follow the installation instructions. An example: http://ubuntu-artists.deviantart.com/gallery/?set=24128075&offset=48#/d34mspx
No video? ;D
Actually, if we mean generic family member who knows little about computers and wants you to offer free tech support (one day I’m going to get around to setting up a premium phone line for family! 
), then I don’t think that’s a hard sell. From my experience I spend far less time helping those on Linux than on Windows.
The problem around here is those people with a strong Windows mindset (no, people, we do not install random shite we’ve found on the interwebs! ). I’ve spent over 15 years working with Windows, and 10 with Linux. Unless you’re willing to take the time to learn the differences then you’re always going to think one is inferior. No OS is free, and the biggest investment is time. Ubuntu is now my primary OS, but if you think I spend my day hacking text files or fiddling with things on the CLI (unless I want to), you’re very much mistaken. I’ve experienced far more driver and DLL hell on Windows than I ever have on Linux. I’m with Cas on one thing - I want an easy life - I just find that now Linux is far simpler and more productive for me.
Well, judging from all his issues with getting GStreamer to work - video ain’t his strong point! 
Seriously, though, Cero - installing an OS, ripping out half of it, complaining about the window icons (they’re on the left on OSX too, and actually after 10min of adjusting muscle memory it makes more sense), and then complaining that you can’t install themes because you haven’t RTFM’d. Seriously, try using it for a while not fiddling with it! Or don’t, just don’t think that that gives you any perspective on what it’s actually like to work with.
Aah, but you are young. I haven’t got the time to wait around for it. Seriously, bring back XP, all is forgiven. W7 is like walking through mud in comparison to Ubuntu on my current laptop.
[quote=“nsigma,post:185,topic:39083”]
Same here. Installed this for some family members because I was tired of all the calls. No complains so far. Actually they would probably complain if they have to go back.
Sign. I gave Cero the advice to get used to Linux before he makes his video. He didn’t follow it. Probably spent 30 mins trying it. He hasn’t seen Windows, so he canceled his try. Now there is one person more who didn’t like Linux because the window buttons are on the left and he couldn’t change it. He is one of the persons (together with princec) who is used to Windows and expects others OSs to work this way or the other OS should at least read his minds. I would love to see them working with Win 8 and newer. They will probably never change Win 7.
However, I installed Ubuntu latest to give that a try instead of Linux Mint (yes, I’m going to try all the distros to give it benefit of doubt so please don’t just bash me and say I’m not trying).
In Ubuntu with Unity, I could NOT find the command line anywhere - not that I didn’t want to. It wasn’t in the usual simple Linux places, e.g. right click, searching the dash etc, I eventually gave up.
See, the issue is that every application I see by default is integrated with that system menubar - chrome isn’t. Ok, there might be an option, but that already makes it not user friendly. Do you know why good set of defaults is very important to UX design? You should only change behaviour if you need to change something that’s NOT the norm - when everyone else uses menubar and chrome doesn’t, something’s wrong.
Ok, that was just a bad example, but a lot of things don’t work. Neither does it give me more options, e.g. in 7z, extract to New Folder, etc etc all from the right click context menu. Not good enough. And yes, I do know how to use the command line. I use the command line in managing linux servers and there is NO GUI. So for a change, when using it on a desktop, I wanted to use the GUI and it should be do-able that way.
Issue again. So many Linux distributions, so many variations. So much crap to support. It should be Windows, Linux, OS X, etc… not <insert 2000 versions of Linux>. The amsn UI is already horrible compared to Windows MSN. I want something that works nicely with all the features thanks. Just like I want photoshop not GIMP.
There were 2 software managers on Linux Mint when I tried it. Which 1 do I use? Which repository do I look at? The App Store on OSX makes sense - incredibly simple - on Windows you go to websites and download install, simple enough. What do you do in Linux? And guess, what it doesn’t install together - all you get is dependency after dependency or related stuff you have to find but you won’t know. I want it all to make sense in 1 place, e.g. if I search for Xen, I don’t have to then look for Xen Tools and I might not know Xen Tools exist or what it even is.
I agree that Unity sucks. They tried to copy OSX but it’s way not as polished.
We don’t want tricks. We want it to just work or easily configurable. Not 200 hops to do something simple. Left/Right… simple.
Edit:
Precisely incorrect. I’ve used OS X and Windows and they’re both fine. It’s Linux that’s the issue. A better OS should be better for new users, even if they come from Windows or OS X. Strictly better means it does the same thing, just better. That’s 1 of the issues with Linux - it doesn’t think about it from the users’ perspective.
I don’t want this to become a ‘bash linux’ thread, but this was always the problem I’d hit when trying to use linux. Everything ‘works’ but only in particular flavours or versions. It usually goes something like this:
me: “I want a desktop linux distro”
beard 1: “Use distro X”
me: “This doesn’t support my wifi card”
beard 2: “You should use distro Y, it has better hardware support”
me: “Now my display is no longer hardware accelerated”
beard 3: “Install compatibility layer A”
me: “Now xvfb no longer works”
beard 3: “You can’t do that with kernel N, you need kernel N+1”
me: “distro Y is only available for kernel N”
beard 4: “install distro Z”
me: “no”
beard 4: “Ok, install gcc and these other hundred dependencies, then recompile your kernel”
me: “Now my mouse is laggy, and I can’t select resolutions above 800x600”
beard 5: “Yeah, that’s a bug in the latest kernel. Try going back to kernel N-1”
me: “gnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn.”
I hope you realize that windows 8 will look the same. Metro is just a tablet gimmick.
Well I have to configure Win 7 too when I reinstall - like disable grouping and everything related to aero… and the startmenu
Super-Button or click on Dash, type “ter” or “term” or “termi” or “termin” or “termina” or “terminal”, Enter. Or just navigate with the mouse in the Ubuntu-Dash (click for that on Application-Lens, then let you show all the installed apps and choose the terminal). Or press ctrl-alt-t. Or press Alt-F2 and type “terminal”. Or open terminal and type “terminal”. Or press ctrl+alt+f1 and login…
Actually it’s even an example that terminal (e.g. command line) is not important in a distribution, it’s just an additional tool like many others.
You have the same “problem” with Windows too. How is it OS’ fault if an app is not consistent by default? As I said, in case of Chrome or Chromium you can change it by 2 clicks. And ask Google why they do that.
7z is proprietary, it can’t be installed by default. There is a thing called “license”, it shows you what you can do and what not. 7z cannot be installed by default, same goes for rar (or codecs, fonts etc.), but you can install them really fast in the repository.
Extract to new folder: There are 3 things. 1. Nautilus extracts everything to a new folder if the archive contains a folder or more than 2 files/folders. 2. If you always want a folder and to name this folder, double click on the archive and let it extract to a folder. It’s a double click more. I don’t see why it’s not enough. 3. Nautilus is expandable with scripts, you can add the option by yourself: http://khol1s.blogspot.de/2010/10/nautilus-script-extract-to-folder.html I think the option is not there to keep the menu clean, it has already 15 options by default.
That’s not true. There are only two important package systems, deb and rpm, and only few important distributions, Debian, Ubuntu, Mint (deb based) and OpenSuse, RedHat, Fedora (rpm based). With just two packages you will cover 90% of Linux users. For other distributions you can compile the software and compress it, such distributions like Arch Linux will put the files to their repository by themselves.
If you don’t like amsn, why did you want it? Take Empathy, it’s installed by default and can be used for MSN, ICQ, Google Talk, Facebook etc.
What two software managers? I don’t know Mint. Do you mean the Software Center and Synaptic? It doesn’t matter which one you take because it’s the same repository. They are just GUI front ends. Software Center is more nooby and easy to handle (with screenshots, paid apps, and user reviews) but not powerfull, Synaptic is powerfull with more options (for example you can freeze packages so that they can’t be updated) but it’s not nooby-like.
Dependencies are actually a positive argument, to keep the OS clean you install a dependency only once and then it can be used by multiple applications. With the Windows approach you could install the same dependency 1000 times. Software managers like Synaptic or apt-get can resolve dependencies really fast and easy, you just need to confirm that you want them. And you want them if you want an application. You will only get dependency problems if a package is too old or too new (for example when you are using an older distro version and want to install a up-to-date package manually), but that’s not usual.
And why does it suck? I’m really interested.
For me it’s good. The only thing I don’t like is the handling of multiple windows of the same app. Everything else is fine. I can open apps really fast, I can switch windows really fast, Unity saves vertical space for me and the global menu is good (with all the usefull options on top).
Aha and why that? Because Windows and Mac OS have this options? If so, show me this. Show me an option where I can switch the position of the buttons. Right, you can’t at all.
In Unity it’s not meant to be able to switch the positions but you still can do it, even if it’s an easy workaround.
Not in my world. Metro is by default everywhere not only on tablets. And I’m pretty sure that Win 9 or 10 will remove the old desktop completely although there will be probably a virtual machine to start an old session (like the XP session in Win 7 Pro).
I just tried installing Fedora 17. Guess what? It allows me to tick applications to add, but guess what again, I ticked the ones I want and it spits out a warning saying dependencies required - it doesn’t automatically help me fix this, only ask me to go back. I don’t know what to tick - it’s not obvious. I spent ages trying to tick/untick failing.
Windows doesn’t install 2000 versions. You only have 1 version of directx / Java / .Net, but bundling IS an OPTION, just like Linux. You can still have abc1.0 vs abc2.0.
Besides, I don’t care. I just want the damn thing to install and I can’t. No point defending it. It’s utter fail. I give up when I can’t even install.
Hell I hope they’re dead and buried in 20 years outside of compiling up legacy software (like a old roguelike or something). But let’s not confuse people cmake is a make-make system so an autoconf replacement…which is a very good thing as it was a pile of crap from day one. Now you could use cmake as a make-system, but it would have the exact same architecture problems as gmake.
WRT: gmake. Sure it’s easy to use, sure they’re easy to write and yes the DSL is quite powerful. It’s also a stinking pile of antiqued design that should die. The problem is it works by spawning processes. This boils down to a very-high percentage to almost all the time of a build is spawning, initializing and shutdown processes. I’m sure a fair number of us have built GCC from source…and GCC is not a big project (it has to build itself 3 times though). If you never have and get the urge, use a secondary machine…start the build process right before quitting for the day…trust me on this.
Eclipse is very fast at compiling (from clean) not because of the awesome speed of its compiler (it actually has a huge amount of extra bells-and-whistles that drastically slow it down) but because it works in a single process. Likewise for cmake as a make-make system.
I quite like the 1969 UNIX model for doing things for which they still work well. But otherwise…let’s move on to slightly more modern designs please.
Post an image of the “tick” and the warning. I’m wondering what has to go wrong during the installation process so that you can’t move on, actually it must be well tested.
I said, you can install 1000 times the same dependency, it’s really possible. For example Qt, so many apps are using it but how often have you installed Qt run libs? Probably never, that’s because apps bundle them together with the core app.
You also can have abc1.0 and abc2.0 on Linux. Qt is a good example again, you can find Qt4 and Qt3 in the repository. Same thing for Java, Java 6 and 7 are available in the repository, to stay on topic of this forums.
Huh? What’s “precisely incorrect”? The only thing there that isn’t personal experience is the assertion that using an operating system takes time to learn! You really arguing with that? :
The thing is, if you transition to any OS it’s going to take time to learn, and if you switch from something else there’s also a load of stuff you have to unlearn - sometimes that’s actually harder. I remember moving to Win 95 having used RiscOS for years and wondering WTF they’d done with the drag’n’drop metaphor! I personally now find OSX confusing as hell, but I’m also not going to criticise because I know I haven’t used it enough. The problem with us techies (I’m as guilty) is we don’t like admitting we might be a newbie at something and might need to RTFM. There’s a lot of assertions on this thread that can be refuted with 5 min reading.
Jesus, I hope there’s a bit more to it than that! :o
Up to a few years back, I’d have agreed with you. There’s a huge amount of work going in to Linux UX now, be it Ubuntu, Mint, Android, etc., and lots of work on user testing.
Well, I wouldn’t say that the only dev of Mint tests his OS with some testers. But he is actually building the OS so that Windows users can change easily. The OS does looks and feels like Windows a little.
Ubuntu has some real user tests, but as I remember they only have testers who have never used an OS or not really extensive.
Btw, I installed Fedora 17 in a virtual machine in about 15min. I think every child who can read could do it. There were only 3 or 4 options to choose and all of them were the language, keyboard layout, some names, login and partitioning. An installation couldn’t be easier.
I’m outta here.
Genius!
Must be why they can’t pay their tuition debts ;D
Again… partitioning. How do you even remotely explain to my mum what partitioning is? All that stuff’s gotta go, forever, for consumer desktops. Once all the “how it works” is totally hidden away, the commandline is utterly unneeded, and everything works the same way across all versions of Linux - that is, the same software, the same GUI, and so on - then it’ll be a massive success, just like Windows and Mac OS have been. And this is why it can never really succeed - because it will never have those features, because of its basic philosophy.
Still, it’s a great base upon which to dabble.
Cas
Although I agree it has to go, it’s a mandatory step of the Windows installing procedure too.
[quote=“Riven,post:199,topic:39083”]
Right.
[quote=“princec,post:198,topic:39083”]
This is not gonna happen. The choice makes Linux. Command line is a useful tool and not necessary already, as I wrote ca. 20 times. Who was it who had problems finding it on Ubuntu? I also gave some answers to you with iptables, ufw, file roller etc.
[quote=“princec,post:198,topic:39083”]
No. Let us think a little. When you go to a computer store, which OS do you find preinstalled on almost every PC or notebook? Right! Windows. You can also buy hardware with Mac OS. surprising which OS is installed there…
You can find the same answer here from Linus Torvalds: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MShbP3OpASA Go to 23:45 in the video.
Android is a big access because if you buy a phone you can find Android preinstalled there. If you buy a PC you find usually Windows or Mac OS (if its Apple hardware). And normal PC users don’t want to change their OS, because for them the OS is part of a PC and they don’t know anything about other OSs or they just don’t want to install another OS because they don’t know how to do it. So companies like Canonical need to became partners of hardware manufacturers to sell good hardware with Ubuntu or something else on it. This is really difficult because for hardware manufacturers like Dell this could end as a disaster for many reasons. Not really a simple task…
Linux,
Just my 2 cents