Community Call to Action re: JVM on PS3

General Discussions
#1

Right, there’s been some discussion lately about Java on the PS3. It has been pointed out that Java can run on the PS3 via the linux/ps3 effort and also via the Blu-Ray JVM. These efforts are interesting and may be of use to some people, but I don’t want to go in via a back door - I need a JVM to work properly on the PS3 and to have full access to the machine so that I can release performant games on the console. I’m sure that I am not alone in this concern.

I am convinced that software developers such as myself or Puppy Games would be happy to pay to get access to a PS3 JVM. I think it offers Sony an Indy/Hobbyist development platform to rival C#/XNA and opens up a whole new avenue for Causal and Indy games to deploy on the platform.

My belief is that if we band together as a community and show some of the work that this community has produced (plus other Java gaming highlights - such as Puzzle Pirates?) that Sony may listen to us and relent.

I propose to listen for community feedback about the best way to put our case to Sony, then collect the information I need for that and submit this to Sony. At this point I think we need:

(a) Game examples that run Java that could work on PS3 casual/Indy channels.
(b) Supporting comments from commercial Java games developers.
© Some argument about the desirability of a Java/PS3 development path to rival C#/XNA
(d) Others ideas?

Well, there you have it - that’s what I believe the plan of action should be. I’m going to wait a while for feedback and ideas before I progress to the next step of gathering information for a document to send to Sony.

Thanks for your time so far. Please help me with your best ideas - I think we can do this, and I believe that it is crucial for the Java games market to be all that it can be :o)

Cheers,

Peter Ashford,
Clocktower Games.

#2

And what exactly are you basing that belief on?

#3

I believe that Sony, being a commercial entity competing against Microsoft has something to gain by deflating C#/XNA

I believe that Indy/Casual games are actually attracting players to console platforms and provide value to them, which is important to Sony’s bottom line. A JVM makes Indy/Causual a lot more appealing than learning to code seven cores and a multiprocessor memory model in C/C++.

I believe that the multiple core nature of the PS3 would be easier coded to using a language that threads natively, such as Java.

I believe that Sony is interested in expanding its business model - and Indy/Casual plus MMO-ish offerings such as Puzzle Pirates do precisely that. Sony has shown that kind of insight and leadership with offerings such as Singstar and Eye Toy which expanded the gaming market with the PS2, I believe that they might have the insight to do the same with Java powered Indy/Casual and MMO games.

I also know that my company would like to do an engine rewrite in Java and still be able to target consoles. The lack of a JVM is the only thing stopping us. We would certainly pay for a PS3 JVM and I believe that PrinceCC said the same thing previously.

I also believe that sitting back and being negative will get nothing done. It might be that Sony ignore us, but if we never try, we can be ensured that we never get heard.

#4

C# is almost identical to Java in terms of functionality and syntax, why not just use C#?

Also, I know that Sun almost immediately became interested in making a JVM for the app store for the iPhone, so the interest in adding other platforms is certainly there.

#5

C# is less mature, not cross-platform and slower than Java, especially the JIT compiler and the garbage collector. Please think about those who refuse to use Microsoft’s products.

Don’t speak only about commercial games. My game is not commercial and I’m ready to pay to get a SDK to port it on PS3.

#6

I think the idea of a JVM on PS3 is a good one. However, I don’t think it is going to get anywhere as a community driven effort. We as Java developers and game programming hobbyists don’t have the weight or finances to get something like this off the ground.

I think for this to have any chance of happening, there needs to be official backing from Sun. Also Sony has to be shown an overwhelming business case as to why bothering with Java on their console is going to make them any money, or give a competitive advantage over Nintendo and Microsoft.

I think our only chance is for the PS3 JVM to ride in on the coat-tails of something like Project Darkstar, with a passionate spokesperson taking the lead and making the case coughChrisMcough.

Cheers,
Brett

#7

Dude I absolutely despise Microsoft products. I’m saying that because C# is already implemented on the 360, just do that if you really want to. It’ll be a lot easier than trying to convince someone to do something that isn’t profitable.

#8

[quote]I believe that the multiple core nature of the PS3 would be easier coded to using a language that threads natively, such as Java.
[/quote]
Don’t confuse the Cell with a symmetric multiple core CPU, because it isn’t. Making full use of the Cell is not a matter of making the code multithreaded (like on real multi-core CPU’s), and as such java is not a good choice for making maximum use of the Cell.

That said, java is a great choice for getting smaller scale indy type games on the PS3 that don’t need all the power from the Cell.

Those two facts together are actually a great argument for a low cost java-based devkit: It’s going to generate a lot more content and it can never compete with the full devkit.

#9

Why do you think it is not profitable?

#10

Well, when there’s an embeddable JVM available for PS3, I’m sure we’ll get LWJGL working on it in short order and Endolf will be all over JInput like a rash too, and then we’ve got a bunch of games ready-to-run. Although they will need adjusting for PS3. But right now I can’t really be doing anything altruistic - I’ve got absolutely no money and every effort I make has to be directly linked to making money for me, personally, right now, so though I’d love to help … I’m just not rich enough any more.

Cas :slight_smile:

#11

quote Game examples that run Java that could work on PS3 casual/Indy channels.
[/quote]
Anything Puppygames, Tribal Trouble, Puzzle Pirates, Bang Howdy come to mind.

quote Supporting comments from commercial Java games developers.
[/quote]
I’m not a commercial game developer, but if I could buy a low-cost java based PS3 SDK with OpenGL support, I’d go for it and make Hyper Blazer into a releasable state (for whatever it’s worth…).

quote Some argument about the desirability of a Java/PS3 development path to rival C#/XNA
[/quote]

  1. Sony has a problem that their console has a reputation of being too hard to develop on. Java is a great counter argument for that, at least in the casual/indy area of games.
  2. Sony is lagging behind in content on PSN compared to the 360 XBL. A lowcost java based SDK will make things a lot more accessible for smaller game developers, so it will help growing quality content of smaller titles without being competitive at all for the full SDK.
  3. Supporting Java as a platform of choice for smaller PSN type titles just makes a lot of sense. It’s easy, proven and standard.

quote Others ideas?
[/quote]
I don’t think we can expect a lot from Sun for this. It seems to me that they kind of gave up on the idea after the java on PS2 failure and is basically leaving it up to the community.
One could also wonder if Sun would be the best choice for providing a JRE on PS3 (I can imagine a long road of compatibility tests, profile specifications and whatnot. It’d probably take enough time for the PS3 to become obsolete in the meantime).

The only solution I see is to get Sony to do it themselves or even better, sponsor and support a collaborative community effort of a few well known java game developers (like Three Rings, Puppygames, Jagex, Oddlabs) to port an open source JRE with LWJGL to PS3 and get their games on PSN.
To get them interested, they would need to see a real, relatively easy to achieve business case. I can image ChrisM to be good person to help lobby the idea although I have no idea if that kind of thing is still something he can do in his position.

#12

Or JOGL as there is already JOGL-ES and PSGL is a sort of derivative of OpenGL-ES 2.0, it would require less work to make it work ;D You should speak about it to Kenneth Russell.

#13

Portability

#14

I’m not asking for financial aid, just your ideas and goodwill. I think that putting a case to Sony highlighting the market we believe is awaiting Sony if they open up a PS3 JVM is the way to go. I think your products are a perfect example of that, so your input regarding strategy and endorsement is all I’m looking for.

#15

Thanks for that feedback erik - those are just the kind of ideas I was looking for!

Anyone else?

#16

;D I agree with you ;D

Do you expect a PS3 JVM from Sony or from Sun then??

#17

It doesn’t have to come from Sun, and I don’t think it will. It even doesn’t have to come from Sony. An open source JVM would be good enough, and it can be ported to PS3 by the community if Sony endorses it.

I’m not sure though how interested the community is. Cas seems open to it but understandably can’t afford to invest into it, I have no idea about Oddlabs, Three Rings, Jagex or anyone if they would be interested at all to target PS3.
Sure, if you ask anyone they’ll say yes, but it will require some effort to get Java to PS3 no matter how. This effort mainly has to come from the community/game developers, and if we’re lucky Sony might sponsor the idea with enough lobbying.

[quote]Or JOGL as there is already JOGL-ES and PSGL is a sort of derivative of OpenGL-ES 2.0, it would require less work to make it work Grin You should speak about it to Kenneth Russell.
[/quote]
I don’t know if it would require more work, or if so, how much more. The point is that as far as I know the most commercial games that seem well suited to PSN use LWJGL, so porting JOGL instead wouldn’t make much sense.

#18

Without Sony opening up the RSX the whole exercise is basically useless.

#19

You’re right, we need both the authorization and the technical help of Sony because nor an illegal JVM neither a JVM without hardware acceleration would be interesting for us.

#20

The RSX is only closed on guest OS’es like Linux.
As far as I’m concerned, we’re talking about really getting into the market of PSN on native PS3. Surely the RSX is open for use and well documented there, or else how would anyone make games on PS3 beyond tic-tac-toe?