His thoughts:
LOL :
Cas
Quote:
“The biggest problem is that Java is really slow”
Cell phone adventures
March 27th, 2005 | John Carmack’s Blog
-Specifically, this would be the kvm, or MIDP, or whatever that J2ME stuff he’s using is NOT J2SE.
But is doesn’t matter now, because it will be up in Google in < week with a BRAND NEW JON CARMACK quote of “really slow”
Someone, kill me…
[mod] For those of you that can discount Carmack as less relatvent now, etc…Well I see gobs of new students entering the industry every day and they don’t. It may not be right or “youthful” but it matters. These are the guys that are growing the industry and there is always more of them than the older…Chris M, it’s damage control time!
It’s quite clear that he doesn’t speak about J2SE. IMHO, the only damage control that could be done is improve J2ME implementations because as far as I can tell, JC is spot on about mobile java. I’m not sure what Chris can do about this.
That would be amazing damage control to release a faster J2ME implementation! - and that’s not exactly damage control.
The issue is the use of the word Java.
He meant the J2ME implementation he was using. If he had worte that there would be no issue.
He wrote “Java” in his defining sentence, which alone without the context of the entire article, is a very easyily eatable, quotable sentence that unfortunately is quite damaging.
I may have said before… but I don’t really care any more about Java’s reputation. The less people using it the better for me, as it gives me a sneaky advantage.
Cas
[quote]I’m not sure what Chris can do about this.
[/quote]
Right, noone can do anything about it. What we need is a killer Java game. Or at least something really impressive.
[quote]It’s quite clear that he doesn’t speak about J2SE. IMHO, the only damage control that could be done is improve J2ME implementations because as far as I can tell, JC is spot on about mobile java. I’m not sure what Chris can do about this.
[/quote]
Releasing a faster J2ME, now that’s damage control! (jk) But that’s not the issue…
He meant his J2ME inplementation was slow…
but he wrote “Java”
That is not complete and has a huge implication. Carmack is entitled to his opinion (based quite correctly on his experience) but the fact the J2SE/EE and J2ME are VERY different technologies is important when it comes to statements like “… Java is really slow”
It’s funny, just as we are making some headway with “Java” (J2SE), “Java” (J2ME) ruins the public picture again…Branding matters, I really with J2ME was called JavaLite of something!
There are already killer java games! Check out the games from the GDC video! Think about Wurm Online, Tribal Trouble, Squareheads, Puppy Games games and I’m sure I’m forgeting important ones…
[quote]I may have said before… but I don’t really care any more about Java’s reputation. The less people using it the better for me, as it gives me a sneaky advantage.
Cas
[/quote]
If you really believe that you are missing allot. An advantage would be stronger developer community, support from key people in the field (Carmack for example) and thus better business models and much easy venture capital and other industry support money…
Cas, you post allot about Sun giving you money to make games. But if people like Carmack gave Java a really good endorsement, you wouldn’t need $$$ from Sun, the other multitude of game money channels would be more open to your development with Java. (and conversely, an ill placed criticism from industry leaders can greatly reduce adoption of Java, by the industry and new developers, sometimes even greater than all the mountain shouting on these forums…:-()
Yeah I know, it’s just that after all this time, there’s no hint that anyone has actually taken the reins on this issue, so I pretty much… don’t care any more.
Cas
It seems to me that the only people who will take the “java is slow” quote literally, and not within the J2ME context, are not the people that really matter.
But unfortunately, otoh, many people will not actually read the article and will only hear something from somebody who’s friend told him his sister’s boyfriend read somewhere that “Carmack said that Java is really slow”.
[quote]There are already killer java games! Check out the games from the GDC video! Think about Wurm Online, Tribal Trouble, Squareheads, Puppy Games games and I’m sure I’m forgeting important ones…
[/quote]
There are great games in that video, but what I mean is a game that will make its creator VERY rich. 
I don’t believe of course that none of the above is capable of making such a success, it just hasn’t happened yet.
agreed. We’ll see…
[quote]It seems to me that the only people who will take the “java is slow” quote literally, and not within the J2ME context, are not the people that really matter.
[/quote]
define: “people that really matter”
Because I would agrue that most of the people that matter don’t even know that Java is really J2SE, J2EE and J2ME, nor should they know, nor do they want to know…
Carmack didn’t post to the Java Gaming Forums where people may know the difference, it was on a much more public blog where they are pretty much guaranteed not to.
I don’t normally agree with Shawn 
but …
…100% with Shawn here. Giving up is … well, giving up. No matter how you look at it.
Well… the blog finally hit Slashdot… 8-0 - http://games.slashdot.org/games/05/03/28/156219.shtml?tid=207&tid=193
]
On the up side, it’s not going over so well (even though Slashdotters can often be anti-Java!) People are mostly pointing out Carmack’s misrepresentation as well as other cell phone issues.
best quote -
“To say that the J2SE (or J2EE) plaforms suck because a particular J2ME implementation is slow is like saying that internal combustion engines suck because your go-kart can only go 15 mph.”
I have to say I am pleasantly surprised!
Yes, that is surprising.
Its true that Java is slower than C++ for games. Something like 75%-95% compared to a C++ game. Carmack isn’t saying any lie in here.
The main advantage of Java is in the flexibility and cleaness of the language. Using Java pays on the PCs for large and complex projects not in small games, unless we are talking about applet like games.
In mobiles it may be even more critical than in PCs. However mobile phones mostly have adopted Java so Carmack must stick to it wether he likes it or not.
The only thing that can boost Java as a credible technology for games is making a java game hit. And this won’t happen with everyone doing his own tiny game instead of working together in one thing that can make some noise.
Amen bro.
Cas