Carmack is trying Java, again

Miscellaneous Topics
#21

Sorry for being a little OT, but could it be possible to get everyone on these forums to make a game toegether?

[quote]Its true that Java is slower than C++ for games. Something like 75%-95% compared to a C++ game. Carmack isn’t saying any lie in here.

The main advantage of Java is in the flexibility and cleaness of the language. Using Java pays on the PCs for large and complex projects not in small games, unless we are talking about applet like games.

In mobiles it may be even more critical than in PCs. However mobile phones mostly have adopted Java so Carmack must stick to it wether he likes it or not.

The only thing that can boost Java as a credible technology for games is making a java game hit. And this won’t happen with everyone doing his own tiny game instead of working together in one thing that can make some noise.
[/quote]

#22

[quote]Well… the blog finally hit Slashdot… 8-0 - http://games.slashdot.org/games/05/03/28/156219.shtml?tid=207&tid=193
]
On the up side, it’s not going over so well (even though Slashdotters can often be anti-Java!) People are mostly pointing out Carmack’s misrepresentation as well as other cell phone issues.

best quote -
“To say that the J2SE (or J2EE) plaforms suck because a particular J2ME implementation is slow is like saying that internal combustion engines suck because your go-kart can only go 15 mph.”

I have to say I am pleasantly surprised!
[/quote]
How about this one?

"…Carmack is way over-estimating performance of most phones. Only the highest-end Java phones support 200k jar sizes. The majority of consumer phones are limited to 64k - even many brand new phones have this limitation. On the other hand, he’s not being 100% fair with his GBA comparison. Gameboy, GBC, and Gameboy Advance all have tile-based rendering that is easily capable of 60fps, while Java-based (and BREW-based) cell phones have only linear frame buffers that you don’t get direct access to (usually). To aggravate things, many Samsung BREW phones have 250ms response rates.

Carmack will also be disappointed when he begins experimenting with BREW. BREW doesn’t support threading, globals, or even static variables. I’m not even going to get started on the bizarre latencies of the API.

One of my jobs as a cellphone developer is to port Java games to BREW. Carmack’s comments about how fast Java phones play like 4.77MHz IBMs is true, but the same is true for BREW phones as well. I’ve only managed to squeeze another 10% out of the performance on similar BREW phones. There are a lot of things limiting cellphone performance, but Java isn’t one of the main culprits. Bad platform design and slow hardware are what kills it."

:slight_smile:

-Chris

#23

[quote] Sorry for being a little OT, but could it be possible to get everyone on these forums to make a game toegether?
[/quote]
No, it’s not possible.

#24

4.77 MHz is luxury. I remember the Amiga computers ran at 3.58MHz and for a 2D gaming platform it ruled in it’s time :slight_smile:

Yeah, yeah, I know… the innovative custom hardware (Copper, Blitter, Hold-and-Modify mode) make a big difference compared to a simple frame buffer.

But it does show how the hardware industry has stagnated because of the need to be compatible. Cell phone hardware seems to really suck. Imagine if they just made one cell phone that emulated a Commodore 64 at full speed… tonnes of fun games would be instantly available. Don’t whine to me about 64k jars :wink:

#25

[quote]4.77 MHz is luxury. I remember the Amiga computers ran at 3.58MHz and for a 2D gaming platform it ruled in it’s time :slight_smile:
[/quote]
Only, the Motorola MC68000 in the Amiga 500 ran at 7.14 Mhz 8)

As for Carmacks article I think the controls and small screen size is a bigger contributor to mobile phone games sucking then the performance. The only games I’ve played on mobile phones that works is simple puzzle games and they don’t require that advanced graphics.

Further, my experience is that the only time people are playing games on their mobile phones is when they are away from home and waiting for something. So only games with a rather short playing time should work.

But I must add, I done alot of commuting with public transportations the last 7 years (an environment that should make alot of people bored and start playing games.) and I haven’t seen that many mobile games players and this is in Sweden that has a high adoption of mobile phones. My experience is that listening to music, sending SMS and reading books are way bigger time killers :slight_smile:

#26

[quote]I don’t normally agree with Shawn :stuck_out_tongue: but …
…100% with Shawn here.
[/quote]
Yes, Shawn did hit the nail on the head again. :slight_smile:

#27

Thats why Sun would have to make something to change this. Like financing and publishing java games. This only shows that Sun doesn’t believe in Java PC games.

#28

According to a session on this specifically @ GDC 2005, that’s a common misconception. They gave facts and figures from surveys that show “commuters JUST DONT PLAY games”

Predicting, in fact, that on any given day, you’ll see:

Commuters are almost as likely to play a game on their laptop as on a mobile phone, apparently.

#29

[quote]Thats why Sun would have to make something to change this. Like financing and publishing java games. This only shows that Sun doesn’t believe in Java PC games.
[/quote]
Paying for content = sure sign of impending doom.

The N-Gage comes to mind. :wink:

#30

I guess this depends on the culture more than anything else. I take the subway several times in a day in Seoul, Korea. There are always bleeps and bloops in any given car from someone playing a game on their cell phone. During the morning rush hour it’s rare I suppose, since most people have their noses buried in newpapers and schoolbooks. But during the rest of the day it’s quite a common sight. I remember a year ago or so the noises from the cell phone games were quite annoying, but now it’s just part of the environment.

#31

Paying for content = kickstarting your platform
Atari, Sega, Nintendo comes to mind :slight_smile:

#32

Theres one reason why a Java game will never be on top of a gamespy list, no mater how good those games are they would allways get a discount for being Java games. Ok so maybe this isn’t true but for such a game to get respect it would have to be twice as good than the best PC game.

Reviewers and publishers own it. If an important publisher doesn’t want to sell a game the game won’t sell if we don’t get enough noise for the review sites to pay atention we are doubly screwed. Somehow i don’t think Sun will have the balls to actively invest in the game market like Microsoft did. And yes im speaking the name of evil here in this sacred place.

#33

hmm, I may not know much about the industry but I’m pretty sure if someone wrote an HL2 equivalent in java, no one is going to give a damn that its java, they’re just going to play it.

#34

[quote]Theres one reason why a Java game will never be on top of a gamespy list, no mater how good those games are they would allways get a discount for being Java games. Ok so maybe this isn’t true but for such a game to get respect it would have to be twice as good than the best PC game.

Reviewers and publishers own it. If an important publisher doesn’t want to sell a game the game won’t sell if we don’t get enough noise for the review sites to pay atention we are doubly screwed.
[/quote]
A Java game will be judged on the same basis as any other. Most people will not even know it’s made with Java. Distributed correctly it will look the same as any other game, except the jre files.

[quote]Somehow i don’t think Sun will have the balls to actively invest in the game market like Microsoft did. And yes im speaking the name of evil here in this sacred place.
[/quote]
Just because Java got a couple of 3d libs, and they have to publish games? They also made JMF, so they should start making movies?

What microsoft does is off topic.

#35

[quote]Paying for content = kickstarting your platform
Atari, Sega, Nintendo comes to mind :slight_smile:
[/quote]
And where are Atari and Sega now :slight_smile:

Conclusion based on the data presented: 2/3 of the companies that try to “kickstart their platform” fail. :slight_smile:

I don’t see why Sun should fund game development - haven’t they done enough by giving away the development platform?

Does GNU fund game development because they provide GCC?

Does Stroustrup fund game development because he came up with C++?

Is Microsoft funding game development? If they are, what division is doing it? The one that came up with .Net and C#?

For Java to work it needs to succeed on its own. There are enough benefits to coding in Java to make Java gaming worthwhile. The most significant issue remaining is a way to get the games on to console systems. For the PC/Mac market we already have the tools needed. Yes, distribution issues remain for small content downlaodable games, but if nothing else happens they will disappear as connection speeds increase. To a large extent that has already happened.

#36

paying for content = fixing the symptoms
making your platform more interesting to developers = fixing the cause

It’s better to stop walking on broken glass than it is to take pain medicine to stop the pain of doing so.
Teach a man to fish, and all that.

#37

Maybe Steven Polge will give his opinion on the subject, I personally don’t care much about Carmack myself ::slight_smile:

As for the Java reputation, well …most people always ignored that Java could run good cross-platform desktop applications. The word Java has always been confused with whatever “trendy” technology Sun was trying to jump on at the time.
At the beginning(10 years ago) “Java” was a synonim for “ugly interactive web content”(applets). Nowadays it’s a synonim for “ugly mobile games”. Most people still ignore that Java can run good cross-platform software…

#38

It’ll get a whole lot more interesting to developers when they actually start supporting us in deed as well as word.

Cas :slight_smile:

#39

This is the worst idea for java now: trying to make it seem “just as good as C”.

Now, java should be showing it’s “better than C”, which it is - playing to its strengths, making every game webstarted and auto-updating (make people EXPECT it and demand it from all games; get them complaining when a game does NOT auto-update, and see how the C programmers feel then).

Java has plenty of USP’s. Someone just needs to market them…

#40

Ah…everyone did it. Everyone. Where do you think the Playstation games came from?

Seriously people paying for content is not a symptom of anything, ti’s just how the games industry works. Ditto with the fact you PAY walmart et all to sell your games - nothing to do with being a bad game, just that’s the way it works (they have you by the balls, you jump when they squeeze, basically).

Although I agree it’s a bad idea to think that paying for content is a way to fix your problems, many companies do it not to fix anything but just because they have to in order to get enough titles of enough quyality to back up all the other things they’re doing.