Apache quits Java executive commitee

General Discussions
#1

http://blogs.apache.org/foundation/entry/the_asf_resigns_from_the

Yet more shenanigans in the increasingly-shaky looking EC. Personally I think this is going to hurt bad, I like apache as a group - they seem to have a good combination of practical front line experience combined with enough technical know-how and foresight to make good long term decisions. They also manage to be open (both in source, process and standards) without being all EFF-preachy about things. Without apache on the EC I expect Oracle to start making some extremely dodgy decisions (probably by rushing through some half-assed language features in an attempt to ‘compete’ with C#.

Thoughts?

#2

Capitalism FTW! “You only get one go at life so; Screw you, Bro! Hey! Where’s my Merc?!”

#3

My thoughts are…

hmm V8 & Crankshaft suddenly looking mighty interesting. The language is nice. It’s getting fast. It’s got ARM backend under development. It’s open sourced. There are more Javascript resources out on the web than for any other language. HaXe will run compile for it. Eclipse no doubt has maturing JS toolage. I’ll be able to deploy applications with V8 embedded and they’ll run anywhere.

LWJSGL anyone? I’m actually suddenly as excited as I was when Java first appeared.

Cas :slight_smile:

#4

Well when i first started coding Java, there was no such thing as the JCP. I really don’t get the big deal. Its a corporate control language and platform. Always was.

The thing i find most frustrating, is that even after the success of java, and the library’s’ that come with java that nothing else has really followed suit. I mean if you write some C/C++/lisp/Scheme you name it, even network code is different on each platform. I find that frustrating.

Surly in 2010 the core languages should have some core libraries that are a little more advanced than just file access.

#5

Yeh, the development and competition with javascript is exciting and they’ll probably catch up with hotspots pretty quickly at the rate they’re going. Just wish the web was more open about the choice of languages you could use (not a fan of javascript), maybe in future they’ll adopt a common bytecode that any language can be compiled too.

Agree with delt0r regarding the JCP, it didn’t really work and probably better just to dissolve it. Oracle will probably be a good steward for Java but shame they are so hard on the community, they could have easily handled the situation much better without trying to sue/drive away their best innovators.

#6

Oracle have at least starting responding to the community now with their response to the Apache move coming only a few hours after the Apache announcement. Much better then the code silence we were getting from them before.

Oracle’s Response

Still rather a pathetic response, basically saying good luck but we’re still not going to give you the TCK or offer you anything to try lure you back.

#7

[quote=“princec,post:3,topic:36029”]
Seconded. Plus the current V8 engine without Crankshaft is waaaaaaay faster the PHP and Ruby (JRuby and YARV), so I’m currently thinking of using JavaScript for future client-side web development. Plus from what I’ve read of Crankshaft the main improvements is does is make long running JS run faster, which is perfect for a web server.

In terms of Apache leaving, I really don’t this will make any real impact at all (except on Apache). Maybe Java will become more focused with Oracle having more control; I think this is probably a good thing. There are places where Java makes perfect sense and there are places where there has been lots of hand waving and good intentions with no real results (like Sun Spots).

The coming WebGL would make this redundant. It’s supported in the nightly build of all major browsers except IE. But with Microsoft’s sudden love of web standards continues they will probably implement WebGL (and maybe something DirectX based) in IE. Soon the mainstream versions of FF, Chrome, Opera and Safari will have 3D games available to play in the browser and IE won’t. It would be madness for MS to not follow suit and implement WebGL!

#8

MS are unlikely to ever support WebGL, it would mean the death of their whole DirectX platform. They’ll probably try pushing something like WebDX or something.

#9

I have no interest in WebGL, or indeed, in web applications. I want to write proper client/server applications, with no browsers in sight, which are a massively restrictive hassle. I want games to run on iPhones etc. using the same code. This now looks like it’s going to happen within a few years.

Javascript as a language is not far removed from Java itself. It could do with a few nods towards features that are geared to raw performance such as direct bytebuffers.

Cas :slight_smile:

#10

In your humble opinion, what does this quit change for Apache?

Me too but being forced to use the censored App Store is not very funny… Have you tried ISpectrum and XMLVM?

#11

[quote=“princec,post:9,topic:36029”]
Kenneth Russell is on it.

The way I see it, Javascript+browser is going to become what Java+JVM should have been 10 years ago. It’s really frustrating seeing so much engineering effort going into reinventing the wheel… and so disappointing thinking about all the opportunities Sun has missed on the client side.

#12

+1 - wonder when node.js will replace the VM in enterprise setups :wink:

#13

I think that’s quite a backwards view. I’d much rather visit your app and for it to ‘just work’ then to have to install or download an application.

#14

I’m sure everyone would love webapps to “just work”, but when you have wildly incompatible attempts at implementing the spec (plus a couple of “implementations” which don’t even attempt it) it’s a nightmare getting them to that state.

#15

[quote]I’d much rather visit your app and for it to ‘just work’ then to have to install or download an application.
[/quote]
Browsers don’t even render even CSS consistently. Good luck with that.

Web pages are not apps.

I love my noScript plugin.

#16

It’s not that inconsistent. Currently the non-IE browsers are more consistent then ever before, and IE 9 is a huge step in web compliance for IE.

It’s only difficult if you still cater for IE 6 and 7 users due to the vast amounts of support missing. But IMHO this is a waste of time for the majority of websites; it’s only a small niche of users (typically in public organisations) who haven’t upgraded to IE 8.

Google Docs, Office Web Apps, Quake 2 (the GWT port), IDEs, GrooveShark, CanvasPaint; there are even desktop operating systems and terminals written in pure JS. They are more then web pages and that’s just what I can name off the top of my head.

#17

You people all make it sound like java is dead/dying :slight_smile:

Sure loosing the ASF is a loss, however the road ahead for Java is looking pretty bright

  • it has a solid road map (for at least the next 5 years).
  • Java 7 is shaping up to give C++ a serious run at its performance lead.
  • The industries biggest Open Source and Commercial players behind OpenJDK (Apple, IBM, Redhat, Oracle).
  • A Steward with deep pockets.
  • The client side issues with Java are all slowly being fixed/addressed (especially for JWS, Plugin and Java Updater).
  • Solid games bindings (both LWJGL and JogAmp), with yet even more solid 2d/3d engines starting to shape up on top of them.
  • Quiet a few nice looking commercial games now in the works.
  • Tons more optimisations coming especially with the Hotspots team getting the help of the JRockit team.
  • J2SE Embedded shaping up nicely.
  • Probably the strongest IDE’s, build tools and documentation of any of the other languages.
  • Its quickly becoming the best platform for 100’s of other languages like Python, Ruby, Scala, etc, not even the web engine stuff can boast about this (being stuck with only javascript atm).

Java’s never had it so good.

#18

I stand by not wanting to be imprisoned in the browser. I want to make proper applications. Hell, I’d like to even make a browser in JS. See where I’m coming from? JS is a general purpose language. Imagine if the only place you were allowed to type and read English was a word processor. That’s the equivalent of saying all applications should run in browsers. I don’t think Google have quite got it right when they say that everything should run in browsers at all.

As for Java never having it so good - look, we’re still in the position where there’s no JVM for iOS that anyone’s allowed to use, no way I can cut down the pointlessly massive JRE runtime to be just what I want it to be (or even tweak it to optimise it), no way I can get it to run on XBox or PS3, and so on, and it was never anything to do with the tech, it was just really bad politics getting in the way of a decent engineering solution. It’s been like this for 10 years now and I’m pretty sick of it. The whole reason all those stupid LWJGL vs JOGL arguments came along was because of really stupid bad politics. It should never have happened. Monkeys ran the management at Sun and gorillas have taken it over. Bollocks to the lot of them.

Cas :slight_smile:

#19

Well if everything was in the browser, the app store wouldn’t be so popular. So Cas can’t be the only one who doesn’t want to be stuck in the browser box.

And more compatible that before (regarding CSS)… Thats not a feather in the hat… It merely makes my point.

#20

I certainly don’t think Java is dying, it has it’s place for building large software solutions (especially on the server) and there it excels. But the reason why it excels is because there is tonnes of development in that area. But it is dying on the client side for the inverse reason (a lack of investment). Many of your points are today beaten by C#. Far more commercial games are in development for that and it has the XNA framework for building games (which unlike the Java game libraries is backed by a major software company).

And if you want something smaller and quicker to get going with you can always use Flash which also has backing and constant investment from a major software company for client-side development (plus it has far better penetration then Java, Flash plugin is typically kept more up to date and doesn’t suffer from lots of trivial bugs you get with applets). Of course now you can also use JS. It’s just too little too late for Java on the client!

Btw there are quite a lot of languages that compile to JavaScript including ports of mainstream languages (such as a PHP port called Phype although I believe it’s incomplete) and I’ve even written my own: Quby. Most also allow you to write your code in a script tag (as you would with JS) and the language will automatically find and parse the code on the fly. Your really not just stuck with JS any more.

I’ve had far more cross-platform bugs with Java (things that literally stop the game/app from running) then cross-browser issues with CSS and HTML (which you can either live with or work around). So I disagree about it being so bad.