Advice for Game Designers

General Discussions
#21

[quote=“tberthel,post:12,topic:36624”]

I don’t think so. I come from a very poor family. I had to pay between 0 and 4 euro per year when I studied in the (French public) universities. I admit that education is often seen as merchandise, as a good but it is something I denounce because I think the access to education should be a right for all.

As Mickelukas and me said, it pretty much depends on where you live. I mean that the master degree is still very useful to find a job in some countries whereas it is not really useful in others because education systems are quite different all over the world. We put the same words on different diplomas since the LMD/EHEA reform. In some European countries, especially in France, the diploma is something that belongs to the social protections, it is used as a guarantee of salary whereas it is quite different in UK and in USA, you’re chosen if you can get the job done whatever the diploma but you have less social guarantees, am I wrong?

#22

I would like to believe what you say as truth. Sadly it is just total BS you have been given. It sounds all nice and wonderful until you actually see who has the good paying jobs. In the U.S. 400 people that all have 1 billion or more from redistribution also have more than half of the wealth of the U.S. Government employees account for most of the good paying jobs in the U.S. like GM, Post Office, Verizon, and such.

I think the person saying that everyone with a BSCS has easy access to work made me angry so I will let the German like propaganda flow since I can’t stop the tide of Fascism in this thread much less in this world.

I just didn’t want everyone that gets a BSCS to think they will get a job because many good ones don’t get CS jobs.

BTW, networking is not a CS skill. It is more of a Hitler, Obama, Clinton like skill.

Staying true to the truth is probably why I never could get good work. In the real world clipping coupons for the Fascist leadership is the way to go. That is to say not be on the redistribution shit list and also work for the government like at USPS.

Social Redistrubution: I am old and probably will never have a job where I don’t get screwed by House Mortgage Deduction, Sub prime mortgage, FHA, Freddy May, or the countless other Fascist programs bent on exterminating people like me. Some people call it taxes even though the constitution only allows for expenditures on the people for coining money, defending against enemies foreign and domestic, and general welfare and not for Fascist crap like HUD, Energy Department, SS, SSSG, ATF, and other crap that will never help me.

I will never own a home and I will never get married, but I will build a Robot Army and Fascist can go screw themselves when I finish it.

#23

[quote=“gouessej,post:21,topic:36624”]

So, your telling me that professors have no use for money? They don’t eat? They hate all transportation? They don’t like clothes?

It is about the money and always will be on earth. You are clearly wrong. Universities are a seemingly endless money machine through government redistribution for a few wealthy people. As they get more and more expensive in the last throws of world wide Fascism/National Socialism they will feed more and more on the poor that must pay for it and will never benefit from it even if they get a Phd or 3.

It’s not about who can get the job done. It’s about all the other stuff that I already stated. If I was wrong then the 400 richest people would also be producing the most. Did you know that 80% of Billionaires never earned a college education and have received more than a billion in government subsidies?

#24

My 2 cents and misc ramble.

What works for others, may not necessarily work for you.

College has its benefits, but it also has some negatives.

Some people will be successful regardless of college.

Do what you enjoy FIRST, everything else comes secondary. If you enjoy making levels or want to make a level editor, then go make levels. If you want to program and make games, then go do that.

I work at a university, although I don’t work directly with academics, I often ask the same few questions to a lot of young people.
They say they want to be an architect. I ask them if they have ever drawn buildings or any architectural rough drafts (for fun) prior to college classes, they say no.
Artists, usually have made lots of art.

I am a mechanical engineer and I often have asked and found out most other engineers enjoyed taking things a part as a kid to see how they worked. Or trying to build new things. Getting down and dirty and hands on. From Legos to VCRs to old cameras.

Regardless of whats “available” to you, you can always pursue what you enjoy. Heck, there was a guy on TED not that long ago, that lived in poverty stricken area and he somehow managed to build a windmill, water processing, mini generator and a variety of other things from misc trash/garbage. He did fortunately get to see a little bit of the internet or some other designs to inspire him. Most of the people here have plenty of access to free information and free programs( open source, etc…)

I personally would say college might be a waste for some, but not all.
I think the saying and argument pro vs con college often overlooks what their degree is in. The largest number of graduating students at my university(40,000+) are pursuing a degree, in a job field that doesn’t necessarily require a bachelors(4 year).

A lot of people feel that the college degree is all that they need. This may have been true in the past. But not anymore.
Make a blog, make a website, make applications, make art, make music, make “mods” for games, make software, contribute to existing projects, become active on your “interests” online and local communities(aka JGO, java4k, gamedev, etc…) Constantly be producing and trying to get recognition, as previous people said. Networking is very important.

Here is the past and the present.
30 years ago… earn bachelors degree, apply 7 places, get 5 interviews, get 4 job offers. Take good job.

now… earn bachelors degree, apply 150+ places(with several variations of resumes/CV to better meet the particular job), have several internships, good references, get 3-10 interviews, maybe get 1-2 job offers.

Unless you have networking, and know someone, you are going to have to “hit the pavement” and work hard to find a job, especially nowadays. This is thanks to the internet. Companies can have 1000x people apply easily, in which human resources can easily filter out hundreds of candidates with simple filters(modified resume for job keywords!!!)
Which means that if you want to get noticed, unless you have EXCEPTIONAL history/experience, you are just going to have to apply to 100x as many places. Until you get lucky.

Unless you make a name for yourself, or know someone…

#25

I don’t say that your professors have no use for money. I mainly agree with what you say about universities, it is used to put a lot of people into debt, to drive them more docile but this is more true in some countries (USA?) and less true in some others (France, Sweden). What worked for me cannot work for you because we live in 2 very different countries.

I admit you’re right. The richest people are not those who produce most. Sorry, I wasn’t precise enough. What you describe is a consequence of the neoliberalism. The liberals use the State to transfer resources (money) from the poor people to the rich people :frowning: Instead of breaking the State, the neoliberals use it to serve their own interests.

In France, things are quite different as the universities had become almost free of charge for most of the students in 1981. The Welfare State has not yet been completely broken here. That is why I understand that what worked for me cannot work everywhere. The perversion of the higher education area is a reality but with local nuances.

#26

WTF - you are an angry man. :o

LOL, never heard Hitler and Obama in one sentence. Yeah, even politicians or dictators need to get along with other people (sometimes). In this sense you certainly are right.

And you are also right that the “system” oppresses people is unfair and greedy. But facing this with anger, cynism and sarcasm doesn’t make live more joyfull, does it?

#27

I would emphasis on the last one. Try to find a side door. Do volunteer work and internships. If you decide to go to college, it is also a great place to get connections.

As I said you don’t want to go through standard (mass-)recruiting processes. There are just too many applicants and chances are, you get filtered out of the applicants right at the start because of some automatic criteria filter (I implemented some, so I know).

I work in IT for nearly 15 years now and I’ve never written a single application.

#28

That is all true cylab, but according to your description it is hard and not easy. I have a BSCS and I have 10 years of software development. The process you describe failed for me so long that I actually make money coding on my own, but it is hardly good pay relative to the Fascist getting billions for nothing. As such I stick with the truth and as you described it is hard as hell to get work in CS.

Also, if you not doing CS work then you don’t have a CS job. IT != CS Teaching != CS The original poster regarding, “quite easy” jobs was full of shit. I have 600,000+ lines of my own code and several hundreds of thousands for employers. I have a million lines of code under my belt, and I will code another million for my robot army.

#29

I agree with what you stated about neo-liberalism.

I won’t comment on University differences as it has nothing to do with, “quite easy” CS jobs for Computer Scientists anywhere.

#30

I never said it is easy. I just described what works for me and almost every other I work with. Actually I hardly know any people that got into IT by regularly applying for a job.

But most people I know working in (more or less) well paid jobs have a degree, because it is an indication (at least in germany), that you are willing (and capable) to get things done. It also is an indication that you are trained to learn new things, which in IT/CS is one of the most important things if you want to stay in business. In fact it doesn’t even matter in what you have a degree - I for example have one in electrical engineering.

About the Fascist getting billions: there is always someone that is richer or more successful than you. It really doesn’t matter if it is because of them being smarter, more ruthless or the system being unfair. You have to live with it and find your own way.

Actually you are doing exactly this, so there isn’t much to discuss here, despite my advice to take things lighter and enjoy what you are doing. You can’t change the world, but you can change your own surroundings for the better. Having a more positive attitude also helps. At least for me.

I do work from CS over system administration to project management and back again. I implemented Apps in Java, C#, C++, Perl, PHP, VB, you name it. So I think I at least partly have a CS job. However, all I’ve written applies for nearly all jobs I can think of.

#31

Ok you got me :smiley: the only way is I have get them all before that (get family). And it’ll become harder.

#32

You’re most likely going to need the problem-solving and programming :point:

#33

Good point :slight_smile:

#34

You should probably ignore both and focus on game design and robot swarming and such. While code will become invaluable after printers can print themselves, it will still not hold a candle to the more abstracted level of thinking. Like how many robots does it take to screw in a light bulb.

#35

It takes 3: 1 to hold the light bulb, 2 to turn the ladder :wink:

#36

I don’t care, I just thought it was a cool video ;D

#37

Bahahaha I love how we went quite offtopic on a video about game designing :stuck_out_tongue:

#38

It took me 3 months for me to get a job after graduating with a bachelor’s degree, #1 in my CS class, won awards, got into honor societies, had extracurriculars out the wazoo, all that crap. And I was looking in the San Francisco Bay Area, where it seems there are more tech jobs than there are people to fill them. I applied to around 100 places and only heard back from around 10, only got interviews at 3.

Ever since getting my first job, I literally have recruiters getting my phone number from some where and calling me. I have 2 or 3 emails about job opportunities a week, sometimes per day. It’s sort of silly.

My point is not that I’m oh so lucky or oh so smart, my point is that the first job is by far the most difficult, and it will take a whole lot of effort and patience to get it. But once you’re in, you’re in. You’ll always have a friend in some company-or-other that’s hiring and you’ll also have recruiters trying to get you to work somewhere else. Basically companies are rarely willing to take a risk in hiring, and it’s expensive to give interviews. If you think about how much engineers are paid and an entire day for an interview, you’d better be certain that candidate is pretty good or you’re going to waste a lot of resources.

And when I interview people, I look for general aptitude and intelligence and team fit (i.e. not being an asshole), not their degree or level of experience, really. But to get to an interview you need a decent resume, and most jobs say “minimum bachelor’s in computer science or equivalent.”

In summary: the first step is difficult, but after that if you’re smart and make friends it’s easy as pie to find work.

I think getting a degree is a very good idea, because just one is often a requirement to even be looked at until you have had a few jobs in the industry. I also think college teaches a lot of good things that aren’t easily measured. :slight_smile:

#39

  1. Just because recruiters send you stuff and you get interviews does not mean you will get work before you run out of money. I actually get a bunch more than 2-3 emails a week in fact it is more like 5 emails everyday. So, attention from possible employers does not mean a job.

  2. You are actually above the norm upon graduation. I had no doubt someone would offer you a job eventually. I actually had my first software engineering job in 2 interviews right after graduation, but now I couldn’t get a job at Walmart much less at Google as even a cashier. I don’t think you understand what can happen if people know your being screwed over.

All I can say is don’t quit your first job you may never get a real chance anywhere. I didn’t. Not that is matters anymore.

Also, it doesn’t matter if you have a degree if you don’t need a job. I was fooled just like many are that you need an education to make money. In the real world it is about Fascism and stealing billions from tax payers to get ahead. You will never make real money when working for scum that sends all of the work far away. When your new car smell wears off they will throw you away in a second, and get another sucker.

#40

I went through a similar decision about whether to go for an advanced degree in Music or not, after getting my BA in Music from Berkeley. I kind of surveyed what was going on in various programs and was really turned off by the “academic” music scene, and decided to do my own thing, and basically supported myself via temp jobs. Now, I regret that decision, because I realize that being an Academic doesn’t mean you HAVE to follow the trends. Once one pays a certain amount of dues, one can create one’s own program, IF you can get a job at a University or College. That certainly has become more competitive, but I do know people that have managed to make it to that level.

Another line of thought, I recall deciding whether or not to take a special program at Stanford on their computer music. What I realized, upon going to a demo/intro, was that it would teach one how to use their cutting edge equipment. But it wasn’t going to teach one how to compose, how to “think musically” and come up with ideas and organize them into pieces someone else would care anything about, and it wasn’t going to guarantee future access to their exclusive equipment. So I took a pass on that.

I don’t see college teaching one to “design” a game. I think it is terrific for learning how to program a game, to teach one the techniques for creating the needed data structures. But the “art” side of it? I don’t know, and I don’t know how that is taught, except by doing.

The ideas for game designs can come from anywhere. Maybe, in college, while taking “breadth” classes, instead of focusing exclusively on CompSci, one is exposed to something in a History class or Literature class or Anthropology class that is inspiring or triggers ideas for games. So Sociology or Poly Sci, or Organic Chemistry or who knows what! Ideas can come from anywhere. And I think it has been established that a lot of advances in this world come from “cross-fertilization”.

Ideas can also come from being part of a crowd, making something that fits the esthetic or feel of a group of people. There is a fashion or style element. How do you teach that? I think it is important to think about games analytically, think about what makes them tick, what makes people want to play them, what makes some games “hits” and others near misses or flops. I think it is important to listen to one’s own interests and enthusiasms, pursue and investigate, even if they seem silly or weird to other people. You have to put “yourself” into design, or the result will be shallow and derivative.

In music, one path is to figure out what attracts your ear and study it, learn from it, steal its ideas and make them part of your arsenal. So I guess the same thing can be done with games & game programming. College won’t necessarily give you the time to explore and create, unless you make time, unless you have your own vision and agenda that you are trying to pursue while fulfilling the requirements of the program. Or maybe there are college programs that have the equivalent of “Creative writing” units in programming, where they give you credits and turn you loose to investigate and program things that are of interest. I haven’t seen such.

No clear answer. If one is by nature creative and tends to dream stuff up, envision things that don’t exist, endure failure and derision, then maybe yes, one can attempt a plan that includes going independant. There is still a lot of discipline and work and things to learn. But if one tends to stay safe with doing copycat stuff or focusing on technical mastery for its own sake, then a for-hire position, being a highly productive team member is a worthy goal.

My four cents. Consider the source, I am barely scraping by, still trying to create and make new things work at the ripe age of 54, but at least finding the process interesting and meaningful, and have the satisfaction of having made a few cool and unique things.