Who would you consider a programmer?

Miscellaneous Topics
#81

To me, the factual reality of what is or isn’t a programmer (or any other classification by the way) is of little consequence.

The only place where it would be relevant, a job interview, will be heavily influenced by the conceptions/misconceptions of the HR person conducting the interview, so splitting hairs about the definition is pointless.

The interesting part, on the other hand, is the philosophical self-definition as “programmer”, just as people who define themselves as “heavy”, “vegan” or “Lady Gaga”.

But that interest is merely on the philosophical discussion about it, the thing with these philosophical self-definitions is that there isn’t really a right or wrong, so again it is pointless to fret about concrete definitions, as someone who believes themselves to be a programmer, even when all they do is data entry, will keep having their belief no matter how you try to prove otherwise.

What we choose to identify with is mostly a matter of opinion, and as such, can’t really be argued away.

Also, while I’m not saying you can get a job as a programmer just because you define yourself as such (That’s what I meant with the first two paragraphs about relevance to job interviews) the ironic truth is that it is possible to just bluff your way through an interview and land the job, and even keep it if you can manage faking it. So much for definitions.

(On the other sad hand, and I speak from experience, HR reps that don’t know what they are talking about can disregard actual valid candidates just because they somehow think that “programmer” means “living encyclopedia of all things computer that should be able to solve college level tests on a whim” or, even more sadly, “electrician”)

#82

TRUE!

#83

You all should listen to me. Programmer is someone who solve (digital) problems! 8)

#84

Hmm, I think we computer programmers, computer scientists, software engineers and co. have a lot in common with theoretical lexicographers in that we pretty much exercise that skill when we have to invent names for routines, design patterns, classes, frameworks and the like.

How does a dictionary and lexicography translate to the world of programming? Well they contain words that detail actions, relations of heuristic measurement, logical classification of realities and provides a framework for making sense of the world. Imagine if you removed all words that could make it possible to communicate your innocence in a court of law? Well, if you observe William Shakespeare, when he didn’t have an existing word to use he would invent one (or borrow one from another language). If you alter the language of a person you in a sense alter the way he sees within and thinks of the world …

… So lexicographers are like covert programmers for the human psyche, and programmers are lexicographers and poets to the compiler :smiley:

#85

What I find funny, is that the ordinary layman person thinks that a programmer
must be very good in math.
Higher Math is only needed for specific projects (Vector graphics, physics simulations)
Most other problems are usually basic math at school level.

#86

Actually, non trivial maths allow a programmer to avoid making some mistakes, think about the representation of floats and doubles for example.

I have worked as an engineer in computer science for five years and we expect from us more than just coding but even a basic developer should have some advanced notions of maths. In my humble opinion, only very basic web design requires extremely basic math learned at school level.

#87

I don’t think I even used a float until 2004.

Cas :slight_smile:

#88

Oooh I’m going to remember that one. Any company I apply to that allows people that think like this to do the interviews is a company I don’t want to work for (because they’re uncaring gits that just do stuff without thinking), but now I have something to close the interview with before I get up, turn around and stroll away. Thanks!

#89

A float is that number thing with commas,
A double is the bigger number thing with commas.

When you need to do that comma stuff you can use a float.

#90

Ha! You must live outside the US ;D

Here, they use a period instead of comma :stuck_out_tongue:

#91

caught me

#92

Don’t be that harsh. Sometimes the bureaucracy of HR departments makes it difficult to have people with technical knowledge conduct interviews. That’s why many companies have tiered interviewing processes, where you first meet the HR people, and then move on to a technical interview. Sadly, sometimes the HR people discard applicants before that… Or, worse (This happens a lot in smaller outsourcing companies) the one doing the interview is some sort of a big fish / boss who thinks knows best.

It’s not the math per-se, but the methodology. Learning math helps structure how people think about solving problems.

It’s rather sad too, because I see lots of people who studied theoretical careers like Physics or pure Mathematics (not an easy feat) being reduced to low level programming/computer jobs (Updating COBOL operations for banks, or doing data input), with no prospects of moving up to greater things.

#93

Q: How much mathematics should a programmer know?
A: more.

Actually I love comments to the contrary because it’s reassuring to know that I’ll always have more work available than I ever could possible ever perform. Seriously so many fields of mathematics are uber useful. Not understanding the basics of fields related to what you want to do is massively limiting. Maybe you can get by without but you’re not doing yourself any favors.

WRT: Interviewing. Any company you can BS you’re way through the interview process is one not worth working for. As for the game industry…you’re not going to get past the phone interview. Don’t delude yourself.

#94

Heh, of course, it’s just something that happens. Not necessarily due to BS though. Sometimes people are given their job because of their attitude (Job interviews have a very important subconscious element, they aren’t purely objective) or just because the interviewer likes them. It’s not a foolproof system.

Yeah, but the problem with the industry isn’t necessarily skill, but offer/demand. It’s a job with a high demand (Every kid in the world who plays videogames wants to work there) and that, quite often, results in either extremely high bars to entry, or in extremely poor work conditions.

At least in my experience, when it comes to large studios/publishers, there’s a polarizing trend. Either they ask for the next John Carmack (which is actually the reasonable route), or they expect to get people who just finished college on the cheap, burn them by subjecting them to permanent crunch time, and then replace them with fresh new cheaper candidates (What I like to call the GameLoft paradigm… Oh, and despite their name, they cram you in a window-less basement ::)).

In the end, Math is invaluable here to actually crunch the numbers and find out if it is worth it. ;D

#95

Yeah you’re right (don’t know what I was thinking being so crude), but on the other hand you do hit the nail on the head - sucky bureaucracy. The interview is the first chance you have of presenting yourself - that works both ways in my book. If the interview is not handled with the proper care by the company, I take that as a hint. But I may be spoiled by working in the Netherlands, interviews tend to be slightly more laid back and informal compared to other countries / continents. At least from what I’ve gathered speaking to people not from the NL.

#96

I agree on the sentiment that it’s not just the employee who has to make a good impression, but also the employer.

Unfortunately, that’s something often overlooked, in part thanks to the prevailing corporate culture (the idea that employees “serve” the employers), in part due to the current tough economic times.

But if a person is in a position where she can afford to reject job offers, she should be very critical of the company she is interviewing for. No one is doing anyone a favor, its a business transaction, with the goods being the employees skills and work, and should be treated with the same mutual respect.

#97

I was speaking about the IEEE-754 1985 floating-point standard.

#98

Yah, I always got people telling me “oh you’re a programmer, you must love math” too. Code to them has lots of numbers and formulas, so I guess that’s all math. I always had to retort: “No, I hate math, that’s why I have a computer do it for me.”

I’m into functional programming, so in some sense I do use a really abstract math involving functors and arrows and monoids and all that gobbledygook, but my understanding of the theory is really just skin-deep, and I rely on the compiler to catch the flaws in my reasoning.

In the end, it’s language skills that serve me best: the ability to pick meaning out of strings of symbols, and the ability to compose arrangements of them to express an idea.

#99

If you can transform human intention into a format that a computer can use to effect the result intended, you’re a programmer.

Cas :slight_smile:

#100

But now we have to discuss what you’d consider a computer…

trollolololol