http://www.rage3d.com/board/showthread.php?s=&threadid=33763693
He assumes I don’t know C++ or ASM and does nothing but throw personal attacks at me.
Is this what you would consider a troll?
Technically he’s trolling you by not really arguing the point… but then again technically your sig on that forum is 110% pure flamebait…
Cas 
I think it’s really strange that people would just outrightly make a thread just to attack me and my sig.
What’s up with people hating Java?
Java is one of the best languages I’ve used.
Given that I don’t have anywhere near as much experience with Java as I have with C++, Java has made my life easier and my programs run quite fast on my PC.
I just don’t understand the fanboy hatred. 
There’s fanboy hatred for Java, there’s fanboy love for it. Don’t go thinking that a conflict such as C++ vs Java is anything new - all the way through the history of computing people have been arguing about languages, hardware, styles of programming, laying out of braces. Hell, in the early days a byte wasn’t necessarily 8 bits…
Way back at the dawn of modern computing (Bletchley Park) some very intelligent people were building the first computing machine, with the knowledge that the course of the war depended on them making it work. However, I’m sure at some point one scientist wandered over to another, looked over his shoulder and said “Sodium lamps? Sodium lamps suck!”
If you really wish to get this guy annoyed, point out that he as a mere user of C++ doesn’t know enough about its internal workings to take full advantage of it, so a 5% difference will likely be entirely negated by his sloppy code. Also, not being a professionally-trained test engineer, his so called “benchmarks” are guaranteed to be inaccurate and wildly misleading. Also, while “kthxbi” is a good final comment, “kthxdie” tends to rile people even more. ;D
I thought of a clever reply, but then realised it’s much simpler than that. Your response should be:
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No, you’re wrong. This might sound like a pathetic response, but it’s the simple truth - you are simply wrong and looking more stupid every time you repeat your fallacies.
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You need to first prove that you are sufficiently qualified to judge the performance of these two languages. So does the person who’s benchmark you didn’t like (and let’s assume he/she wasn’t, and we’ll all ignore their “benchmark” entirely because the chances are it’s BS too).
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Part of that qualification requires that you understand both languages through the whole of the runtime cycle. It’s a funny co-incidence that every time a C++ programmer says things like this, when you ask them about how java runs it turns out they don’t have the faintest idea - but believe they do because they have a vague idea how it used to run 10 years ago. It’s never occurred to them that things change in the IT industry, and that perhaps they should get off their butt and do some research into how things change. As Lou Gerstner (Chairman of IBM) was fond of saying - in this industry, if you don’t keep refreshing your knowledge every few months, you’re useless to us as an employee. (…and even more useless to yourself - your knowledge can be more damaging than the blind ignorance of someone who knows what they don’t know instead of assuming they know what they are talking about)
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There are some bugs (they even have bug numbers in Sun’s database) in the current JVM from Sun that cause specific operations to run unexpectedly slowly. In some cases there are good reasons for this (the compiler refuses to risk accepting a CPU’s potentially “broken” IEEE floating point, IIRC?), in others it’s simply that Sun’s staff haven’t finished adding the optimizations that have become available for new CPU’s (like some of the vector functions).
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If you go off and learn a LOT about how code executes at runtime, you’ll see that java should, in practice, demonstrate performance so close to C++ as to be statistically insignificant (e.g. it is too low to stand above the differences caused by one machine having a 3-month out-of-date library and other common minor effects on performance). You will also see that in theory, C++ can never be as fast as Java.
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When you make a statement that 100% optimized java is slower than 100% optimized C++ you demonstrate you truly are a moron or else have no idea what you are talking about. A 100% optimized JVM can never ever be equalled by a C++ compiler…it’s just that no-one has (yet) spent sufficient time and money to produce a JVM that is quite that optimized (…unless e.g. IBM’s mainframe JVM’s already have? Or some other HPC that I’ve not been lucky enough to use :))
K.I.L.E.R’s answers in chronological order…
And now, i ask you: who has no respect? who doesn’t listen? who has no arguments? who is impolite here?!?
(And personnally, i don’t agree with your signature either.)
Well if someone is disrespectful towards me do you really think I’m not going to bite back?
I mean the guy calls me out instead of PM’ing me and starts knocking me and my sig and has a very agressive attitude towards me.
How do you think I’m going to respond?
If the guy asked me politely about my sig I would have had a nice polite little discussion about it.
And what else he did to you? On usenet both of you would be considered trolls.
Aye. The wisest thing of all to do is to stay quiet when someone trolls or flames you, which leaves a convenient record of how much of a nob they are hanging in limbo for all to see but of course doesn’t incriminate oneself
Cas
Not sure how much importance I would place on a thread in a forum where the community commonly puts their machine specs in their sigs. To me thats juvenile right from the start. Plus the guy has a .ru in one of his links. Thats a different culture there. Although the language is english the intent and meaning can be quiet different than you may suppose.
Just my .02
[quote]And what else he did to you? On usenet both of you would be considered trolls.
[/quote]
Why would I be considered a troll?
My sig?
For continuing a personal flame war.
…across boards! Hehe.
Cas
And there’s another one of those threads here:
http://www.gamedev.net/community/forums/topic.asp?topic_id=230962
I’ve been spouting off in it, and getting some really off the wall comments. Come join in!
Thoroughly enjoyable, I particularly like the part about writing huge programs.
I really like this logic.
Kev
[quote]And there’s another one of those threads here:
http://www.gamedev.net/community/forums/topic.asp?topic_id=230962
I’ve been spouting off in it, and getting some really off the wall comments. Come join in!
[/quote]
Gah!! I can’t bear it. Tried reading it, but the stupidity level is just too excessively high I feel my own IQ slipping as I went further through the posts.
Got as far as the guy who was saying something about JIT being just another level of interpreted language (based on that logic C must be just another level of interpreted language as well), and another who claimed the impossibility of a JIT reaching the speed of C/C++… before I gave up.
I like the comment about large projects - the exact opposite of what every scientific study has shown… what a fool.
I believe those Java bashing C programmers should actually try Java. When I mean ‘try’ it, I mean make a basic program that has more functionality than Hello World. LOL!
I wrote a basic (DOS-based) 2D engine in C back in (around about) '92. Absolute bloody nightmare. The only good thing about it was using Borland C. Anyway, to cut a long story short (and having developed a bit in C/C++/Oracle Forms/Powerbuilder/VB/etc in the subsequent years), when I tried Java in '96, I couldn’t wait to never look at another programming language again. The same 2D engine would’ve taken me a fraction of the time it had in C (especially considering I spent about 99% of my time trying to track down frigging memory/pointer problems). Haven’t touched C in anger since, nor have I wanted to (although I’ve become a bit of a Python fan, as well as Java, lately).
I somehow think the rabid C/C++ guys have an added ‘perversity’ chromosome…
(with apologies to the Java guys on this board who also develop in C/C++ ;D )
I do a wee bit of C/C++ and it truly is a joke trying to do anything remotely non-trivial.
Anyway - I’ve stopped trying to evangelise quite so much now, because I want a competitive advantage…
Cas