What's happening with the Java Games releases?

[quote]This is my reponse to gregorypierce’s FIRST post. He got off the second before I could get this up :slight_smile:

Well I have to say that on most points I strongly disagree with this thread and particularly gregorypierce’s post as I tend to take a much more realist perceptive on the GTG as I will shortly explain. This will certainly turn out to be an interesting year. :slight_smile:
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Indeed. Though your concept of what’s realistic from the GTG is clearly different from mine.

Works for me. In those areas that there is no community agreement (i.e. the age old swap buffers discussion), we are just supposed to update it to do what we want? That’s what you’re suggesting - either that or branch from the tree.

Indeed. I won’t respond to this in particular because it has no bearing on this particular conversation. I’m looking for solutions - cost is not my higest priority.

Then perhaps it needs to be outlined what the purpose of the game technology group is. What its purposes is to the community, what the community should expect from it, what it provides, who is in charge and what they are doing. Case in point, I have a project which I’m pushing through business development right now and hell I don’t even know what the GTG’s role would be here.

Let me phrase this the right way - that is a complete and utter mischaracterization of the statement about the people here who have voiced unhappiness (i.e. its BS). I myself have comitted a considerable amount of time to getting the OSX port to actually do something other than the limited set of functionality it had in graphics, the lacking input port, and the lacking audio port. What you have just said is an insult to anyone who has comitted code to this project and I take particular offense to it. I have nothing further to say on that particular issue.

While you seem to have misread the statement I will respond specifically to your comment. Am I the wrong person to talk to Sun? Perhaps I am. Perhaps I don’t need to talk to Sun on this issue at all. But before I draw that conclusion I will wait for Sun to say it. If Sun is not going to be leading the way with respect to java gaming, then I’m not sure what their role is wrt the JTG. Are we just getting technology from Sun when releases are done? If so, that is a very shallow relationship and one that I’m not sure is in my best interest going forward. I made my position clear when I posted wrt to a board position. I want to make these solutions standards - but that is something which would clearly be led by Sun, not me as an individual. If that’s not where all of this is trying to go, then clearly I have misunderstood the point of the game technology group.

If they are, they are doing it in a manner that is alien to my experience as a game developer. I’m aware of java gaming projects at EA, I’m aware of our own projects within Time Warner because I’m responsible for a few of them, I have ties with console hardware vendors. I communicate with Cingular, Nokia, and TMobile on a very regular basis as a matter of my job function. So perhaps in all of my daily communications I’m missing something, something is going on well below the radar that I can’t see. If that’s the case - all I can say is that there are many wasted opportunities happening right now.

Maybe Sun has told you more than they’ve told many of us - which is fine. Sun’s IP attorneys are an excellent bunch about keeping Sun’s IP private. What I don’t need from where I sit is buracracy. I need to know where things are going so that I can get my business development folks energized and positioning to make some money off of projects which I can generate. Its really hard to define a capabilities statement for technology if you have no idea where that technology is going. But of course, I’m dealing with a VERY large company and 4 divisions within it… all of which are very large. I need answers so that I can plan projects, budgets, and manpower. Deny me that and the technology becomes pretty much a novelty. So I’m not sure what your particular day to day business interest is with this and where you want these technologies to go - but what you suggest is the maintenance of the status quo. If the status quo is where things are going to go - I’m not really sure how the long standing problems with the community are going to be solved.

I have to say I agree with Greg, especially as I know the position he’s in.

From the perspective of anyone trying to use Java technology for high-performance gaming, several years have passed without a roadmap, and there’s still bugger all empowerment within the community.

But never mind the community, Greg and I and many others have money riding on the whole deal and when you’ve got money on the table you want to know how safe it is. You can only know this when you’ve got a clear and definite roadmap. With explicit objectives and dates on it. Without a solid technical foundation there is no support from business.

I’m only vaguely bitter about LWJGL not being a part of the GTG’s plans but as long as we create a superior solution and manage it better we’re going to remain the #1 technical choice for game developers using Java, which is fine. But we’re still the #2 choice for corporates because we’re just some Mickey Mouse open source project run by a bunch of enthusiastic nerds, with no corporate backing whatsoever. But Gregory is prepared to take the plunge and make a major corporate decision to go with LWJGL (based on, it seems, one tiny technical detail, an AWT component). That’s saying a lot about faith in the GTG. He’s already abandoned LWJGL, so why’s he coming back to it now?

Why, indeed, has he felt the need to rant openly about it?

Cas :slight_smile:

If you have money on the table WRT to Java game development, public community forums may not be the best path for business information. Clearly the pressure of these projects shows in the tone with which information is demanded from Sun. But in a public forum is really poor form.

Go talk to Sun directly, if it’s that important to your business.
If talking directly doesn’t work or doesn’t give you want you want, isn’t that the message? Moving into public debate is just inflammatory and deconstructive, certainly not community oriented, in fact, it really serves your own interest for venting.

Hey, I’m not the one ranting :slight_smile: But I am backing him up.

FWIW I do talk directly to Sun, but it hasn’t helped. I imagine Gregory, with several 0’s more than me on the end of the money involved, may be a trifle more concerned and if he feels that he has to resort to a public rant - well, how the hell did it ever get that far? If you look back at Gregory’s past over the last whenever, you’ll find he’s otherwise rather reserved and level-headed. What’s up?

Cas :slight_smile:

Well, since I work with the Time Warner reps at Sun, and was just in the TW offices in NY, why have we not been contacted yet? I have not received any contact from Greg yet. I want to get to the issues you need resolved but I shouldn’t hear about them through a community board.

Cas and I do speak on a semi-regular basis (would you classify that as semi-regular Cas? :)) but to date, there is nothing from a business perspective that I can do to directly support what Cas wants.

-ChrisM

I think: let’s be cool and calm down.
This community isn’t dying. We all have a lot of work. There are problems of course, as always, but I think these can be solved.
In general I think this forum is great, it’s great to have it, it’s great to see all the good postings from users, SUN men, and so on. Thanks to you all!
I am happy JOGL and the other projects exists. Oh and Xith3d. Really nice. I am waiting for the Tiger. :slight_smile: I feel with you SUN people working hard on its release.

Kepp up the good work, let’s improve what can be improved, but please: don’t panic. There’s always hope. :slight_smile:

While I do have my own business interests that I consider, I also want this community to succeed and thrive. I don’t look at this whole thing as simply ‘what can I get from Sun’. I look at this as - how can I, in my position - with my resources - with my experience, work with the community and help it thrive with Sun. My goals are not purely self-interest for the now, because in the long run a strong Java gaming community is in my best interest.

I’ve helped quite a few projects here talk to actual publishers, and I’ve advocated this technology (as a whole) to a wide variety of corporations - gaming and not. You’d be surprised the number of government simulation companies who are interested in using this stuff. Having spent time in that world I’ve cross those shores and introduced some major players at SAIC to this stuff. What I hear back from everyone that I’m talking to from gaming companies to defense viz-sim companies is that they aren’t sure where its all going, they aren’t sure what the community commitment is to it, etc. (and I’ll bring up the etc in the board meeting because its something we need to resolve in order for the community to be successful).

The final comment that I’ll make is that there is nothing that doesn’t belong in the public forum. This is a community of equal partners thus everyone is entitled to know what’s going on and to air any conflict. I don’t believe in behind closed doors talks when it comes to something that affects more than those people that are behind those closed doors. If you do Shawn, well that’s up to you. I don’t believe that is a worthy value of a community and is in fact counter to it. Having people ‘shut up’ and ‘go away’ because it might be inflamatory is just wrong. I guess my question would be - what do you think the community is for?

Shawn appears to have what is to me a very strange vision of Sun’s involvement in Java. He appears to be arguing for maintaining the historic non-involvement of Sun with games development without ever stating any reason or benefit to this, or any other explanation of why it is desirable.

There is a very simple issue here which might become clouded by some of what else is being said. Does Sun intend to “support” java games development (JGD to save me typing it repeatedly ;)), and what does this mean?

The answer to the first was, we were all but promised, yes. And the foundation of the GTG was touted as a very obvious and explicit demonstration of this - Sun had given Chris and others an official mandate to pursue the support (by Sun) of java games development …in fact, they even had a budget! (correct me if I’m wrong, but my memory is that Chris and Jeff were for some years doing games + java promotion purely in their free time, not as part of the day job? The situation now is that they are being paid to do support of JGD). Leaving everything else aside, the members of the GTG have done an excellent job of encouraging everyone to believe that their role was to support JGD. Some of the frustration at the moment of people here is born from the fact that the GTG appear to be turning around now and saying “we don’t have time any more”, or “we can’t be bothered (it’s too much work)” (both of these are paraphrases of excuses that GTG members have made on these forums). Or, if Shawn’s statements were to now be confirmed by the GTG, an implicit “ha! fooled you! we never intended to support JGD at all!”

The remaining question is: what does it mean to “support” JGD? For anyone not intimately familiar with this kind of situation, the first thing to appreciate is that we’re not talking about supporting a product - we’re talking about supporting an industry (that of “java game development” i.e. all thsoe involved in developing games using java). There are some good examples of what this means in practice, and how to do it well (see below). Fundamentally, the aim is to grow a struggling not-quite-surviving industry into a great big industry that is practically indomitable. Like when governments subsidise fledgling industries, give them tax breaks etc, fundamentally the reason for doing this is that you believe that the industry is capable of growing spectactularly, and that you can help it grow faster (or just make sure it does grow, rather than fizzling out). You don’t do this, of course, unless you have some benefit to the growth of the industry. I’ve not heard anyone query whether Sun would benefit from thousands of games being developed in java instead of C++? I assume everyone agrees it would benefit hugely.

But how do you support an industry? Well, this is well-trodden ground, researched over decades by economists etc. I’m no expert by any means, but I do have experience of building communities, and there are several parallels. The biggest things I can see are:

[] Engender and maintain trust. The next few items fail without this…they only work when people believe you. Similarly, reliability and believability is critically important
[
] Commit to the industry, long term. If people can see major commitment from someone important, they will follow. Partly because it increases the chances that thigns will get fixed, and increases the amount of resource that is devoted to this industry.
[] If you’re the platform provider, promote your platform outside the industry (but for that industry in particular), so that people like venture capitalists, customers, and partners for industry members are already convinced of your platform’s value, and are more likely to work with members of your industry. Usually only you have the influence and resource to do this effectively.
[
] Understand your industry. Work every day at improving your understanding, and your ability to speak with and for the industry, rather than just at them. This is critically important for you to make profit in the long run, and also at making all your other moves much much more efficient / effective
[] Work closely with people within your industry, understanding their problems, and helping wherever you can. On the bottom line, Sun could throw $1000 of consulting at every company developing java games this year, and it wouldn’t even appear on the significant figures of the annual financial summary. But for those companies, $1000 is a heck of alot of time and expertise, that makes them more efficient and much more likely to produce games that make your platform look really, really good.
[
] Spending a LOT of time communicating with your industry. You cannot do too much of this, especially when your industry is struggling to survive. You have got to build a community and drag it day by day through problem after problem, literally drag it into the successful flourishing booming industry you want it to become. This requires incredibly strong leadership and a lot of guts and determination - you will have to fight the industry’s battles for it, because no-one else in your fledgling industry will be strong enough to. When Shawn says that leadership is not important, he pulls down the whole house of cards, and in his theoretical approach dooms Sun to failure - java games development will probably never be anything but a tiny niche if Sun can’t show leadership in this area (it’s just - only just - possible that someone else could take on this role, but it’s much much harder. About one in a million chance, I reckon)
[*] Partner with everyone; partner with anyone! Build partnerships everywhere you can, get your finger on the pulse, and be a matchmaker between all in the industry. Be the ultimate networker, and - most importantly of all - disseminate everything you are aware of to all the members of the industry. This is the “shotgun approach” - scatter info everywhere and wait for some cool things to come together. It works; it’s inefficient, but very very fast and effective at getting things done. When your industry is struggling, this is like a huge boost-up, although it takes some considerable effort.

Clearly, the GTG have been doing several of these. My fear is that they appear to have turned their backs on others. I am also greatly disappointed that the new Community Board Member doesn’t think leadership and communication are at all important (or even necessary) for Sun.

Finally, how about we look at what other companies do when they “support” their part of the games industry? I’m a bit behind the curve on this one, but I do recall that MS, for instance, can throw so much free software, support, ideas, contacts, technology previews, free marketing, discounts, free promotion, etc at you that sometimes you just want them to SHUT UP for a month or two.

Go have a look at what MS does for Xbox developers (just the free bits), or Sony for PS1 and 2 developers (just the free stuff), or Intel, AMD, nVidia, and ATi for PC developers. You can get next-generation graphics cards BY THE DOZEN from the 3D card manufacturers if you need them for developing and testing your game (I’m not saying any high-schooler with no intention of programming a game can just waltz up and say “gimme free stuff”, but anyone with a good solid game design is welcomed with open arms to go and apply for this stuff).

Then there’s all the work they do to lend you a tiny proportion of their marketing machines. These are big companies; they’ve often already spent the $25k to get their name on something, or buy space, and sharing that with ten or twenty (or more) of you developers costs them nothing extra - and they still get their name everywhere AND they get to share in any positive press from your game. Even where they haven’t yet paid for something, they can give you stuff that costs them very little and it disappears into much bigger budgets - but which you, as a developer, would have had to jump through hoops to get at.

In particular, they will often help with introducing you to potential partners, customers, etc - they have the contacts, and a simple recommendation (cost: $0, 15 minutes of time) can get you into a meeting you would never have achieved even if you devote 3 months to trying.

I’m making a conscious decision not to rise to some of the statement’s Shawn made about people that I too find extremely offensive (and AFAICS I wasn’t a target - I’m merely offended by what you’re saying about other people who don’t deserve such attacks). So, I hope he doesn’t take offence at this, but my current observation is that he appears to be in his “comfort zone” where he needs no help from anybody. There’s nothing wrong with that, nor with telling people for rocking the boat. Except that it isn’t fair to then claim that no-one else needs any help when this is clearly not true.

Moreover, Shawn has now been elected to speak for the community. That places a burden upon him, a burden to understand more fully the issues of the community - and if he doesn’t like the burden, it’s time to resign.

[quote]Moreover, Shawn has now been elected to speak for the community. That places a burden upon him, a burden to understand more fully the issues of the community - and if he doesn’t like the burden, it’s time to resign.
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Wow, it didn’t take long to call for my resignation.

You are not the whole community.
You are the vocal minority on this board.
The group at Sun is called the Game Technology Group right, not the Game Business Group…
I am definitely all about a platform of developing tech here, but if you have issues with Sun’s business management, yes, I am not the person that will represent you.

I will gladly step down if this board position is all about using it to manipulate Sun to my vision of my game business. That I am not interested in supporting. And based on what I know of this board and what the GTG has done and is doing, this board is not about that. This is one of many places the GTG listen for input.

But I could be wrong, and if I am I will gladly step down.
As a matter of fact, I would gladly hold a new election after all of this.
I’m sure the community at large has a better picture of what people are really trying to do here. Hopefully we will all see more of what everyone is doing live at GDC.

It wasn’t that at all. However, I do apologise that I failed to keep from being offensive. I hope we can avoid letting my mistake cloud this discussion any further.

As far as all the rest is concerned, the point I’m making is that in the real world you cannot support a technology by ignoring the business side of things (EDIT: …which is quite a good way of summarising my previous post!). FWIW I think I’d rather like a world where technology could be developed in ignorance of business - it would make many things in life simpler, and many technologies of a higher quality…but I chose not to become an academic some years ago, and academia is the only place I’ve seen where you can get away with it.

Which is not to say that such an environment is bad (although there are well documented challenges to overcome if you have less pressure); for instance it might be a great thign for Sun to offer just such an enviroment, e.g. by funding games developers (and not just one, but many) to write games on a financially lenient basis, that would be a great part of supporting the industry. It would go hand-in-hand with the J* API’s, which at the moment (unsupported, slowly progressing, schedule-less) are only a small part of an overall picture.

It’s a pity that a huge part of the community (I’m going by straw polling here, and not making a guess at relative percentages - but there are clearly many here) is European, and most Europeans can’t afford to go to the GDC (IME the couple of weeks of jetlag is the real pain here, costing far more than just the ticket price alone :(…although the tickets certainly aren’t cheap).

I wonder seriously what the chances are of seeing a Sun presence at ECTS? Sun as a company is not just the US, and I’d have thought that Europeans having to wait for whatever crumbs of info dribble out via these forums, 2nd hand, is something that needs correcting urgently. It would be different if there were lots of information disseminated via JGO + these forums, but that of course is the original subject of this thread…

Cool, everyone that really wanted to say something has said what they have to say on the sounding board. Lets lock this thread and save the rest for the board meeting. The community has had a chance to discuss things and mention what’s important ahead out our discussions. Shawn and I are in a sense diametrically opposed on some issues and Sun may have a different view on others. This is all good and while we’re certainly not on the same page while we’re meeting behind closed doors at the board meeting, the community should clearly see that the issues are going to be brought up. We may not all agree with the results, but from this we will know where we all stand and how we’re going to go forward with this.

I would hope that closed door meetings are the exception not the rule.

A nice sentiment. I for one am very pleased to see there will be some conflict in the board - firstly because it makes everything that much more interesting for us, but more seriously because our two board members have shown that they can be relied upon to voice issues that they feel need to be voiced. A very good thing.

But we’re way too early in the lifetime of the board to have resignations or votes of no-confidence! :o I don’t think it’s in the community’s best interest to mix things up so soon, so please let’s give them a chance to at least work out what the other members are thinking before bringing out the pitchforks.

To go back to the original post - there’s one thing that will fix this problem immediately, short term. Make a release! Tag the lot, package up the binaries no matter what known issues exist and call it 0.1. Hell, call it 0.5 if you like - just get a release out there. Once people see a version number they’re much more likely to consider using something, and it’s an immediate and really easy way of demonstrating progress.

Wow! I didn’t intend to provoke such debates! :o
But I think this will benefit for the whole community.

Thanks to all in response to the original question!

Here’s a quickie suggestion, just in case-

Somebody ought to post the minutes of the meeting up, promptly, after the meeting. It doesn’t matter if it’s boring or whatever, but any news is good news.

(That post I forwarded from Chris Campbell got largely ignored though despite it being a really interesting little insight into what’s happening under the hood. Strange)

Cas :slight_smile:

[quote]I would hope that closed door meetings are the exception not the rule.
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It’s up to the board to determine whether a given meeting is open or not. The current rules (and I imagine any revision of the rules that may come) certainly provides for this, though the initial meeting, scheduled for next Wednesday, is likely to be closed for practical reasons more than anything else.

Given that this is the first meeting, I would strongly encourage them to either publish the minutes, or at least issue some public statement following the meeting.