The Next Game Boss

Miscellaneous Topics
#41

This is in no way your fault Eli. Actually, in terms of professional game making, they are expecting a lot out of your game in a meager 3 minutes.

That girl chose a really ambitious project, and a very risky one at that. Graphics and music wise, it just looked a lot more appealing. The main problem I saw with her entry was that the players were not interacting with the game. Clicking a button 2000 times, regardless of the effects or story displayed, is going to get boring after a while. In case, I agree with the judges decision for not letting her move forward. The game is just a graphic novel, and you can get that just by buying a book.

Even though I think the presentation of your game did not give it justice, I can see why it was considered fun. You get right into the action immediately, and the game is simple and easy enough to pick up. The fear is that is just looks a bit generic, and the game play mechanic is something not tried too often. The games that did try it were not ground-breaking… so it might be an uphill climb.

Of course, it is as you said, all these things can be addressed through polish. 2 minutes is really a deal breaker for RPG’s and text based adventure games which need more time to get to the meaty parts. But, the name of the show is “The next game boss”, not “The next graphical presentation addict”. Seriously, I think the way they are doing it so far is really forcing you guys to think about the game aspect more than anything else.

#42

Jaffe swears a whole lot and is extremely opinionated. But he’s a very good guy, and I think he actually gave out more compliments than anything else. I liked his style better than Lisa Foiles’s for example because all I ever got from her was positive stuff and so I still don’t know what she might have wanted from my game. I totally didn’t notice Jenova saying “I don’t buy that shit,” but yeah. In context, I imagine it was fine. I’ll bet they did a lot less click mashing than they showed, too. Similarly, I think the decision was significantly more lopsided than it appeared on the episode. I obviously wasn’t in the room, but I was able to hear words here and there as I waited 20 feet away. One reason I don’t look that excited in the episode is because I was 95% certain I had won.

The bug he encountered in my game he encountered repeatedly, and basically was able to play for 20 seconds only. That’s why he got so pissed. Interestingly enough, it was this that made me figure out shortly thereafter what the problem was. It had appeared completely random before, so I had no idea (and that’s why I submitted a build with that issue in it). Seeing one person get it multiple times in a row meant it was some kind of behavioral / input thing, which led me to discover it was caused by a half-implemented feature that starts when you press the Up or Down arrow key. I think Jaffe kept expecting to use those buttons so naturally pressed them immediately, whereas the other two didn’t. So anyway, I think his reaction made sense, although he obviously didn’t sensor himself.

You guys both make good points. The biggest issue is the playtime limit. My game also does not have enough charm and polish yet, and the other game was very pretty. I’m now working with 3 artists at once in attempts of alleviating how sterile the game feels.

#43

Congrats Eli! so cool to get your game on TV.
Lots of funny moments there. The judges tried to make it seem close for the sake of politeness to your opponent and the pretense of competition but it was clear as soon as they played your game that they were having fun, and that when they played her story game they were bored.
When Jenovah Chen said he didn’t buy it about the archeaologist, I think he meant that he didn’t believe the story. Maybe he’d like to see something like, you guide the mummified pharoah-king who can’t see through the pyramid labyrinth so that he can lead his people out of slavery or something. Chen obviously thinks the story is important, but that is something you haven’t focused on because to you the game play and graphics are way more important.
It’s a pity for the girl that she used a pre-built engine to make her novel-story-game. It looked like the major (and OBVIOUS!) problem is the clicking, because the text is only slowly displayed. If she fixed that problem she might have had a better chance.
So will you be in the next episode, against the next competitor, or will wait to vs the winner of that comp and vs them in the one after?

#44

I do agree that the judges might seem stupid. But they’re all characters, they’re not “real people”. Maybe they are, but the edit makes sure they are depicted as Sharon Osbourne/Howard Stern/Howie Mandel.

As for “I don’t buy that shit” it may be that the he’s not a native English speaker. When I curse (or hear somebody cursing) in English, it does not sound as “heavy” or as rude as it should sound. I don’t have childhood memories of my parents scolding me whenever they heard the “s” or “f” word. But I still am afraid of saying merda or puta near my parents. Well all I’m saying is that he might not wanted to sound rude, maybe he was just using an expression he heard a lot in the movies.

As for the games itself, it was obviosuly a poor choice of the girl to do a VN, and even if she insisted on that, it is obvious the judges would get bored. When I first saw it was a Visual Novel I knew what would happen, and I knew Eli had won. Maybe she’s a good game maker, but to be the next game boss I believe you have to understand how people get hooked into games.

I’m not sure about Eli’s game being a winner game, but I haven’t seen other episodes. I’m not sure what the judges are looking for, but I agree that some of the judges said it might be a game you play a little while then you forget about it. I think you should focus on that, on not making it a disposable game. I think the rest (polishing, adding content) is just a matter of effort and time invested on it.

Good luck!

#45

Yeah, I’ve spent a lot of time since working on making it engaging in the long-term. One of those changes was to make the story actually interesting. The general plot is that rather than the spirit just being a glowing skull thing with no personality, it’s actually Bones’s wife. And the whole reason he’s running blindly into all these temples is not to collect cash but to figure out what happened to her. That’s certainly a little cliché, but I think the supporting bits of the plot make it more interesting. But since this not an endless runner, I actually have a lot of ability to put story in, and I studied creative writing along with computer science so… I don’t know why I didn’t do it earlier.

Plus, you’ll be getting new powerups every few levels that will change the way you play the subsequent ones. Kind of like how Braid added a new time mechanic every world. We’ll see how it goes. :slight_smile:

#46

Well this show is much better then the first one but it sill has many flaws. Needless to say I agree with most of the decisions on who has won. The winner in the first episode was my favorite game so far. The crab one was…crabby. I have never played a VN and even though it all look pro it is a very nitch genre.

I will have to say Eli that your game looked like one of those flash games you play for an hour or so and never remember. Not you but I hate most games made with unity as they reek of unity. Kinda like games made with UE3 reek of UE3. It also had very little that interested me. Now its not like I got to seem for then 3 sec clips of the game which is such a crap way of judging games but it just didn’t peek my interest at all.

As for story, you do not need some heart ranching, gripping, epic story in a game to make it good. Your game is one of those more arcade games that you play to kill time and not because you want to experience something. Build on that it is the strongest thing I think your game has. Make it so that every time you pick it up it is fun and re-playable. I love the idea of a guy just running around looting burial grounds, crypts, and ancient priceless artifacts for nothing other then his own gain. Some times its fun to play the villain or anti-hero bad guy. Ever play Wario? Absolutely amazing. Be careful with adding all the story in as if you do it right it will be great but if it feels at all lackluster it will show and bring everything down. Good story can pull bad game play up but a bad story can pull good game play down.

Hope game goes well but I have to say that I really am now cheering for the winners of the first episode…unless some other cool game shows up.

#47

nitch xD

So so so so true !

Absolutely - only say something if you got something worth while to say.

Not that any of this has anything to do with Eli’s game - I mean I wont judge any game after such a short look at it.

#48

Well, if you grab the average japanese visual novel, it always starts slow, telling some backstory, narrating one or two days of boring-everyday-life, presenting the characters, etc. It usually takes you around 1 to 2 hours of reading before you get into the action, maybe even to get to your first crossroad. So yeah, a VN is pretty much a colored book.

They have almost ZERO interaction apart from the question answers and decisions. The art is usually a background, a foreground (where the characters are displayed), and the text overlay.

I’m pretty sure that girl picked all of this and added western art and some rpg elements; So if i am right, there will be a massive wall of text before the real action begins.
The judges were expecting a different kind of game - an interactive adventure.

So yeah, Jaffe is lying and he doesn’t know what the hell he played.
Foiles (supposedly) played Professor Layton 3 times, so the same applies to her. (She was the one massively clicking to skip the text)
Chen might know about one or two things, since he’s into artistic games. But im prone to believe he was expecting something else as well.

I’m not telling that the judges are bad. Of course they have their credentials, but they rated something beyond their own scope of knowledge. And, alas, if i were in your situation, i could give less f**ks about people in the game scene judging my own game in 2 minutes.

Well, the girl has balls to create something that is unviable market-wise (unless she translates it and moves to Japan). Gotta give props to her. But Eli’s game would have won in any case scenario, even if the judges KNEW what they were rating. You can’t read and rate an entire book in 2 minutes.

[quote]most games made with unity as they reek of unity. Kinda like games made with UE3 reek of UE3
[/quote]
QFT

#49

Huh, lots of Unity hate here. Seems pretty ignorant to me. Have you guys actually used it? Does my game look like a “Unity game?” Why? In my opinion, Unity just does a lot of the annoying stuff for you, but doesn’t constrain you in any way unless you’re lazy. Just look at their game list, I don’t see anything that makes all these identifiable as “Unity Games.” http://unity3d.com/gallery/made-with-unity/game-list I would argue it’s more that without much effort you can make a game that looks like X. Without engines, your game is going to look more variable. But if you’re actually polishing a game and giving it character, then it’s not going to look like X. Obviously DBB still needs polish at this juncture, but I still don’t see what about it makes it “Unity-like.”

#50

It’s just that making a simple 3D Unity game doesn’t require as much work as some other languages so most 3D unity games turn out to be low quality 3D games.

#51

Never said your game specifically but to answer that question, yes it reeks unity. Unity is just a tool much like lwjgl or libgdx or x and y and z. For some reason I can tell if a game was made with Unity in around 10-15 secs as people who use it fall into their design patters especially when it comes to art assets. Same thing goes for UE3. Now I have seen Unity and UE3 games that even though you could tell that they were made with them the games were great. Also need to remember that Unity is not a AAA game engine.

One thing though that bothers me about peoples opinions of “indie” games is all this crap about originality and taking risks and “artsy.” There is nothing wrong with taking a game style that is fun and adding your own flavor to it. I could play a generic TD game anytime. Endless platformers are a dime a dozen just like VN, fps, rpg, and… Thing is, they are still fun. How can you make your game stand out among all the other platformers people have played? How can you make your rpg be one that people remember? Almost everyone has heard of Halo. What did they do that was so different from the other begilion fps out there to make them stand out?

As for your game and others that might show up, an arcade game will lose to Mass Effect any day of the week. The brothers from the first episode have what seems like the biggest, most professional, and complete game I have looked at. They are not going for the next Angry Birds but the next Mass Effect. I would play Mass Effect anytime over Angry Birds. Most people watching this show are not the casual games that have only played Angry Birds. They are gamers. The thing that arcade games have going for them is that they are simple and much easier to execute. If their game with the novel and everything turn out to be good then I think they will win. But if they don’t back it up then they will lose. Just hope that they can’t back up there words.

#52

Ghosted me.

I don’t think that is it. I think that when people are making a game they tend to use a lot of the build in systems such as particle effects, modeling/lighting style and other various things the engine offers out of the box. Then they forget to add their own in because it takes so damn long. Have you ever tried to seriously draw or model really good art? Takes freaking forever. Most teams that work on a game have like 60 artists and 20 programers. Why? because art work takes forever. Then the fact that most people using Unity are new and don’t have 5 dedicated consistent artists also takes its toll. Its not the engine but the people using it.

#53

I’ve got 3 artists and just me. 3D is expensive work (in terms of time). I do indeed use the built-in particle and lighting systems, but all the art is our own. I also haven’t written any custom shaders. So I can see you noticing stuff like that, but I also have seen plenty of games where I say, “wow, that’s Unity?” Admittedly these are mostly 2D games.

As for arcadey versus “deep” games, well, for me it depends on my mood. When I have the time (which is rare), I love to be absorbed into a game for hours. Like Assassin’s Creed, Crusader Kings, etc. More often I am playing on my iPhone and it’s some game where I can quickly get my fix. My goal is to make a game that can give quick fixes but that you could theoretically play for hours. I don’t think these are mutually exclusive.

I did play the brothers’ game (Ring Runner), and I had a lot of issues getting into it because it was so extremely complex. I’ve got no doubt that there is incredible stuff under the hood there, but I personally think that even a complex game should not present you with any options until you understand what they all are. There is a reason the level up system works so well - you can learn one ability at a time, you’re not presented with a level 100 character that has thousands of options.

It’s all about the happy medium. Arcadey games don’t have to be shallow crap, and deep heavy games don’t need to require hour plus play sessions. Unfortunately with a 12 minute episode you’re unable to see that complexity going on with the various presented games. Most of them are very good offerings in one way or another. As for my game, they showed the judges saying “can you keep this fun for a long period of time” because that’s the only negative thing they had to say and they needed drama. Now people are repeating the same thing back. I can tell you right now my game doesn’t suffer from that at all, and they only really had that comment before they actually played, but editing can make it look like whatever they want. :slight_smile:

#54

Yeah, you can totally tell that Mirror’s Edge was made in UE3. ::slight_smile:

Most UE games look like UE games because they use the default shaders and crank the specular levels up to 11 because that’s what’s currently in vogue. There’s no reason for every UE game to look like Gears Of War, as Mirror’s Edge proves.

#55

To say nothing of Borderlands.

#56

with so many ue3 games there are many exceptions obviously. mass effect is ue3 aswell. however we are talking about the bulkload of forgettable third or first person shooters.

I love you :smiley:

#57

Dungeon Defenders. (Indie, Humble Bundle 7)

#58

And as I said when I posted Unity’s “made with” list there is a ton of stuff there that doesn’t look like Unity either. This is why I said it was an ignorant thing to say. But as someone who is currently using default shaders and particles, I don’t think I’ll be in the group that is different than the norm.

As for indie games taking risks and such, I agree that’s BS. But, I think indie games are able to take a single vision and really go for it, which can never happen with big publishers. There is constant compromising and many decisions made for the sake of time and money, rather than to make the game better. An indie in his garage can theoretically release a game whenever. I think this is a simplification, but it ends up causing more interesting games to come out of indies.

But you can’t tell what’s interesting about these games from the episodes, anyway. Certainly you can’t from mine. So the viewers are complaining before they even know what they’re looking at.

#59

Episodes 3 and 4. I’ll be in the next episode (coming out in 7 days).

GRNeOiVL2Ko

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#60

Spate and Ring runner both look nice, but I fear (for you) that Ring runner will win it.

Mike