Still there are no desktop games development houses specialising in Java or making any money to speak of here in the UK. This is kinda odd because the UK is one of the biggest game producers in the world (strangely disproportionate to its diminutive size and talent base). Discuss.
And check this out: WiiWare.
So there’s WiiWare for Wii and XBLA/XNA stuff for the Microsoft camp, neither of which have even a sniff of Java 
Cas 
Because they are closed systems and only use their own tools. There is no OpenGL in XBLA, there is no 3rd party access to Wii network, etc.
So, Sony remains the holdout for Java…
Chicken and egg. Speaking as someone who tries to fund these projects, there is a severe lack of halfway-decent companies attempting it. Plenty of people pitching much inferior stuff. My suspicion is that developers who are really good in java are making lots of money in mainstream IT, and aren’t interested in games development. Discuss. 
True.
If I was still in the UK (or anywhere civilised) I’d be doing contract work for mega bucks, and I know a few ex-mobile developers doing the same.
I think half the problem is that developers are typically creative types, and not business/money men.
I read somewhere that UK games biz programmer salaries are the same today as they were 10 years ago. That sucks.
Are there any technical details on how the WiiWare will work? I haven’t seen anything that rules out Java yet, although I suppose ChrisM would be at liberty to say now if Sun were involved :-\
edit: Hmmm, this interview seems to suggest that WiiWare will use the standard devkit, which are apparently “darn near free to developers”. pffft.
I can’t help but wonder that blah^3 is right about the money situation.
ChrisM is tempting everyone again with rumours of Sony… but… what of the desktop? Still all the games dev companies I know are writing using traditional tools like C++. I brought this up because in another private forum I’m in somewhere some indie guys - actual proper successful ones that have brought out games remarkably like Starscape and Mr Robot - asked about a neat-o GUI API that had built-in unicode support and discounted Java again because “it was shit”. This is 2007.
Cas
Or, the ones that are interested in game development bite the bullet and jump to C++ because they have no other option.
Other random comments:
Definitely need that DirectX binding then don’t we.
Tell me more about this PS3 VM.
Cas
Well consider that 95% of all PC users are going to be running Windows! Then the whole matter of cross platform development is of no concern. You also have the choice of .net, and out of .net and Java you are likely to find .net getting developers favour since you can do so much more with it.
Why should any o team choose Java over C++/DirectX or .NET/Managed DirectX, etc? You can rearrange the order any way you like, but the answers are each equally important.
I agree the UK needs companies to develop mainstream desktop games in Java.
Codemasters and Rockstar (North) are still using C/C++.
Stories I hear are that in the UK money is in being a game designer, not a developer.
Paid Codemasters a visit a few years back - full of rooms of guys creating content (models and artwork), only a handful of people coding. I still walked around in awe…!
95% of PC users may be running windows but about 50% of the market is Mac users. Strangely. Mac users buy more stuff and they’re hungry for products. Can’t see why they’re being ignored. There’s also a small but increasing Linux fraternity which you wouldn’t base a business on but you’d get it for nothing if you used Java.
I still think the fundamental problem is probably the OpenGL one, namely, that most Windows developers are more comfortable using DirectX and there’s still no way to access it in Java after all these years. If I were Sun I’d fund that project right now.
Cas
I’m not sure I understand. What would be the point of using Direct X in Java?
What does it give you that OpenGL, JInput, OpenAL (etc) dont?
Higher windows compatibility and well… there is the xbox 360.
More games devs that would be willing to use Java. It’s not a question of the capabilities of the technology, as much as it is the capabilities of the devs. If the major studios look at Java and decide that to use it, they would have to effectively retrain their game engine devs on the APIs as well as the language, they are not going to be as tempted to use Java as if they just had a language switch.
I believe thats part of the arguement from princec.
Endolf
The question that keeps coming up in my mind, is why do we care? I can grasp that ChrisM should care, it’s after all part of his remit - but I assume those who use Java for game development know why they’re doing it - productivity.
I wouldn’t give a rat’s arse whether anyone else used Java, apart from the possibility of getting a job doing it one day - without big companies picking Java up then there isn’t much chance of a job.
So, why do you care? The market size increase potential through getting Java on consoles? Validation of the ideal? Something entirely different?
Kev
Woah, where did you get that 50% figure from? The statistics say that Mac notebooks have a 14.3% market share and 10.4% of the desktop market share. Then out of those users how many of them are going to be gamers? The current trend is not to get your child (who wants to play games) a mac, in fact if you wanted to play games then you just don’t buy a mac. Therefore the gaming market theoretically has no mac users, since there is no games market on the mac system.
That’s not to say that mac users do not play games, but macs and Linux systems were never bought for games!
I imagine he’s getting the 50% from his own sales figures 
There may be less macs in the marketplace, but they are comparatively ravenous for games content.
A great example of this weird aversion to Java is Introversion. They make crossplatform games with OpenGL that aren’t about technical willy-waving, so Java would seem to be a perfect fit for them. However, they code in C++ because that’s what they know. As a result they have to farm out some of the work for mac ports to Ambrosia, which must eat into their profits somewhat, and have generally a terrible time getting the different platforms to play well together (Defcon on mac and linux was delayed for months because of floating-point issues : )
I suspect for the small companies it is partly using what you know, they come from a gaming background and are instantly productive in C++ as the know it inside out what what libraries to use. Java is an unknown to them and therefore a risk. Their other rational is starting a small company is risky, if it all falls apart then you need a back up plan. If you have been coding in C++ then the owners can easily slip back into a mainstream games company and continue doing what they love. If they have spent the past 3 year coding in Java then it would be harder to convince a mainstream game company to take you on.
I am not saying I agree with these view points just trying to show a possible mindset that means people in small companies continue to use c++ rather than changing to Java or C#. Things are gradually changing, the games industry always lags behind the rest of the computing world, although it may be Microsofts marketing of C# as a gaming platform that leads to C# being the dominant higher level gaming language.
Java needs a higher profile but to get that is need more quality games written in it. The classic chicken and egg situation as people have already mentioned.
ps. First post by the way…
(Good first post and welcome ;))
Yup, 50% from my own sales figures - and most of the other indie devs I know.
If the business industries managed to switch to Java so easily, why is it so hard for the games industry?
And I care because – I enjoy working in the field of Java games development. It’s nice and relatively easy and fun.
Cas
Does other people not using Java stop you doing that?
Kev