Hi all,
Something struck me last night when I was playing on www.shockwave.com
Can Java ever ever produce as good games as shockwave can?
I mean take a look at RR2 Detinator, Its a very good game, very addictive, yet there isn’t a single java game that can compete with it…
Is java as productive (ie spurt out as much games as possible in the shortest time) as shockwave/WildTangent?
Can any java game with the same standard as shockwave’s make enough money as the shockwave alternative?
DP
Of course java will never be capable of that. We’re all idiots for soldiering on with inferiour technology. :
But seriously, I don’t know much about shockwave so how productive is shockwave for games actually? How much time did it take to produce RR2 Detonator for example? It seems to me that shockwave easily beats java applets, but I don’t know if shockwave is capable of things like wurm online, squareheads or megacorps online (although none of them are actually finished games).
I agree with you regarding games like wurm online…etc. However, with the same timeframe, someone with enough shockwave know how, could create 2 maybe even 3 in the same time frame, all of excellent quality.
Also, two people made RR2, one artist, and one programmer. With megacorpsonline, it seems to me like many people have created the engine alone, which then coded the game, and they have the artist (i think its 3 coders? and an x number of artists).
Shockwave can also produce native files, not just web based applications. All can be done with a single click of a button (export! :D). So the shockwave platform is not just a web based thing like applets are…
Im not meaning to sound like this is an advertisment for shockwave, neither a downer on java…but we really need to get a good suit of components and utilities that are easily (maybe not?) integratable into each other so that we can make games like these. Providing more choices and jobs for developers like us!
I think JavaGamesFactory is meant to be similar to shockwave.com…am I right in saying that? If so, we need to have a very selective criteria to ensure that only the best of the best java games are on there, not just any pong clone! Just look at shockwave.com (again, not an advert), they have excellent games…
I think this came about that when ever i get bored, i search for games, and (most) free games tend to be built on the shockwave platform…
One more question, do you think more people have the shockwave plugin than the java runtime? :
Shockwave is far more widely distributed than the 1.4 runtime (the best Java runtime). The tools completely eclipse those available for Java, the APIs and style are geared precisely towards the kind of content that it delivers so well. Java has little chance against it until someone comes up with a smaller, faster runtime and a decent shockwave-beating API with integrated dev tools.
Cas
Well, if thats what we have to do…thats what we gotta do. But in the meantime, there is a big monopoly being made by shockwave over the gaming industry (free, online…etc).
As for the smaller JVM, I think we’ve been down that route many times, and SUN will never do it, even tho 99% of the community wants it…tough luck!
And by a small JVM, the JVM must be < 1Mb and can update itself (like shockwave!). About a “faster” runtime, in terms of speed, java wins hands down! I mean look at most of those shockwave games, they are like PS1 games (in terms of poly counts).
Once this is done, i believe that doors will open to java game developers outside the mobile industry. And we start seeing outsourcing as a much less better solution to most companies than it is now (in terms of games).
Consoles would then follow on from this, because this would have a smaller runtime…updating facilities…etc
I think the community needs to lay down the steps required to achieve such a goal within a fixed timeframe. Ie, in the next 2 years, we are going to reduce the JVM size by a third. To do this, we remove package x, y and z. Optimise a, b and c. You get the gist…
From the website, it would appear that MCO had the same number of people, no? I don’t have SW installed to check, but is this RR2 as good as an FPS with real-time shadows?
JGF may become a vehicle for that; lots of things have been planned and sketched out along those lines, using the leverage of JGF to co-erce people into making their libraries etc more compatible (c.f. how JGF helped, in it’s own small way, to push people towards webstart).
On one level, yes, you’ve got the right idea. JGF is a bit more than that, aiming to be a couple of sites in parallel, all heavily integrated, but the game-playing side is modelled on bits of SW.com, popcap, Pogo, etc.
There are some old conversations on these forums about just that, and to-ing and fro-ing about whether to rank games by player reviews or admin reviews (the latter allows you to ensure only the best games appear on front of site).
You can really really help with this right now by looking carefully at the JGF preview (now on http://javagamesfactory.org ) and coming up with ideas and getting involved with the desgin and dev. For what you’re thinking of, go to the “games” section (it’s practically empty at the moment) - the layout there is just one idea, not finalised, and better ideas / layouts / new ideas are welcomed. Just comment at the bottom of the page!
Seriously, I’m concentrating on the back-end and on the presentation of the Developers area right now, so it would be great if people would go and throw out ideas on the Games area (and ideas on how the two are linked / distinguisehd from one another).
Shockwave Games always looks and feel alot better than the current comparable batch of Java games normally because they’re designed and created by Artists rather than dedicated programmers.
Looks like the toolset is better for some part but worse for others (content manipualtion vs language feature richness).
Shockwave is very good at its target market but isn’t scaleable enough to suit anything larger than a web game.
Kev
[quote] From the website, it would appear that MCO had the same number of people, no? I don’t have SW installed to check, but is this RR2 as good as an FPS with real-time shadows?
[/quote]
The Megacorps Online project is developed by Agency9 as a test system for the graphic engine AgentFX. Several developers and one artist have been involved in various stages of the development of AgentFX. Credits to them If we isolate that time and only look at the development time of MCO instead then we will get a different picture, after all the RR2 guys didn’t develop the shockwave 3D engine.
The current release of Megacorps Online, which is a complete rewrite, was developed in roughly 2 months by myself and a graphic artist. That work could have easily have been made in the same time by a company licensing AgentFX.
So if we look at Java with a toolkit such as AgentFX than I would say that Java and AgentFX is more than competitive against Shockwave.
Cheers
// Tomas
CTO Agency9
I’ve done a bit of work with Shockwave using Lingo and their own attempt at Javascript. The sensation was somewhat similar to coughing up my own testicles and I would prefer to never have to do it again.
Flash is rapidly becoming slightly useable but for anything remotely technical I would suggest that Shockwave and Director are vile and repugnant to all right-thinking people.
Shockwave games tend to be more accesible and more attractive, but often these games are very limited in what they can do. It are all very basic games (fx look at level of freedom you have in RR2, its limited to the road), but these games load quick, feel good, look good and sound good… and thats what people buy.
But… there’s nothing done in shockwave that can’t be done in Java. Java is a fully fledged programming language where the only limitation is your skill. Im not sure about Lingo, but from what i’ve seen its more of a extended scripting language.
Building a good set of libraries and use talented artists for graphics & sound is the key:
-Eyeone.com has some java applets that can really compete with these 3d shockwave games.
-Pogo has a very nice need for speed game done in java using the wildtangent plugin. They have also some really nice command and conquer games (3d) in pure Java.
-And indeed Megacorps Online shows what can be achieved in a short time with a good library to build upon. I was really amazed by the quality this engine offers!
*The wildtangent plugin is also available for Java, and though I personally dont like it as it’s a native plugin, the java version of Need for Speed using it is really sweet!
[quote] Building a good set of libraries and use talented artists for graphics & sound is the key:
[/quote]
Shockwave (read director, flash…) costs money. The java compiler, java runtime and several good IDE are free so why not license a good set of libraries since you already saved a lot on the rest of the tool chain.
// Tomas
Site is buggered (webserver’s ASP/JSP stuff is broken, looks like the SSI module has been deleted), all the games are 403 Forbidden, and most of them look dull and boring anyway.
Which is a disappointment, because I was looking forward to something good given your comments :). Any ideas where else to find the games you were thinking of?
[quote]Site is buggered (webserver’s ASP/JSP stuff is broken, looks like the SSI module has been deleted), all the games are 403 Forbidden, and most of them look dull and boring anyway.
[/quote]
Yes, their website seems to be totaly broken. And yes, some of their games are total crap… sigh I’ve seen this scenario before…
[quote]Which is a disappointment, because I was looking forward to something good given your comments . Any ideas where else to find the games you were thinking of?
[/quote]
Their website doesn’t seem to be updated since a long time but they do have some games that really have the potential for commercial quality, at the moment the Norish & French version of their website seems to be working:
http://www.eyeone.com/e1gc_no/no/main/games/spacecowboy/game_intro.jsp (A multiplayer 3d hi-octaine like game, much more freedom of movement as most shockwave games ive seen… this one also is already around for (?) years)
http://www.eyeone.com/e1gc_no/no/main/games/fifo/game_intro.jsp (very complete multiplayer soccer game)
(* seems to be using a native plugin for graphics, great for a webbrowser game though)
http://www.eyeone.com/e1gc_no/no/main/games/bmexec/game_intro.jsp (reminds me of death rally, I think it could be a great game if they’d polish the gameplay a little bit more)
http://www.pogo.com has some nice arcade Java games too, I’m especially aiming at “Need for Speed: Top Speed”, “Command and Conquer: Armored Attack”, “Command and Conquer: Attack Copter” and “Ricochet Extreme”
http://www.globalfun.com/?url=/games/games.asp Has some nice games too, especialy Robobombo and teslatron. The site seems to get a fair amount of visitors (considering the amount of promotion done… not much) The multiplayer bomberman clone proves itself to be an attractive game amongst its visitors… (you can check it out here: http://teslatron.globalfun.com/pap.jsp?companyID=57&langID=1
Ofcourse asside from webbrowser games, games like Megacorps Online & Wurm online show the great potential for webstart like games. These things are obviously impossible for applet alike but do have the nice possitives that an online game website should offer. (accesibility, availability etc)
[quote]Shockwave (read director, flash…) costs money. The java compiler, java runtime and several good IDE are free so why not license a good set of libraries since you already saved a lot on the rest of the tool chain.
[/quote]
Exactly, Java has the potential of delivering so much more to developers.
I totally agree that AgencyFX has the right ingredients to do so. In my opinion the problem is that most developers that’d like to develop such games dont have enough money / recources. Look at this forum, how much of the developers have the money or resources to put a talented team or game together? (Im sure most of you expirienced game developers know that even small games take a whole team) Mostly they’re hobbiests… dont have a chance going mainstream-commercial with their games because of their limited budget / resources or time…
The commercial market seems to be focussing mostly on online puzzle games. Not surprising as it has the biggest audience (like housewives playing solitaire or word puzzle games…) These games have great revenue potentials, low key development / costs and dont need big server farms and support teams… but these are not the games most of the people on these boards are focussing on… We want hard-core games, games that deliver an expirience standalone/console games offer. These are the games that are a real challenge to the developers and I think thats also the reason why it’s not really adapted on most (commercial) online game sites; its not worth exploiting commercially yet… not until now that is…
I think Angency9 is a great example that it is already possible with Java given enough talent & good enough libraries to build upon. It approaches a quality we’ve come to expect from standalone/console games, but my guess is that integrating these with the web(sites) will be the next big step in game development.
[quote]Yes, their website seems to be totaly broken. And yes, some of their games are total crap… sigh I’ve seen this scenario before…
[/quote]
The applets codebase points to dev.eyeone.com wich was down when I tried it. If I copy out the applet tag and paste it in my own html file, and change to www.eyeone.com, then it work. Also get wrong magic number on most of the applets when using java 1.4.2_06. I remember we had similar problems when we made the games. I think we solved it by compileing it with the ms compiler. Or was caused because we used the ms compiler, hmm, don’t remember. The games must have been recompiled sinse then and the error has returned.
[quote]Their website doesn’t seem to be updated since a long time but they do have some games that really have the potential for commercial quality, at the moment the Norish & French version of their website seems to be working:
[/quote]
The company who made the games went bankrupt summer 2003. One of the employes bought the games and the domain I guess. He wanted to make some sort of portal and use the games to atract traffic. Anyway, he is not too conserned about updateing and keeping the games working.
[quote]http://www.eyeone.com/e1gc_no/no/main/games/spacecowboy/game_intro.jsp (A multiplayer 3d hi-octaine like game, much more freedom of movement as most shockwave games ive seen… this one also is already around for (?) years)
[/quote]
This was one of the games I made. Lots of fun making the 3d engine It was finished summer 2001.
[quote]http://www.eyeone.com/e1gc_no/no/main/games/fifo/game_intro.jsp (very complete multiplayer soccer game)
(* seems to be using a native plugin for graphics, great for a webbrowser game though)
[/quote]
No native plugin. It’s a multiplayer peer to peer game. It is signed so it can send udp between the two clients.
[quote]* They had a very impressive prototype 3d engine demo online a while time ago… shame they removed it. I believe they’ll use it for an upcoming game they’re developing, a quake like 3d shooter in (pure 1.1?) Java.
[/quote]
I was going to finish Squareheads, change the graphics and level and call it Undead Arena. Unfortunatly I’ve lost momentum and it’s on hold.
[quote]The applets codebase points to dev.eyeone.com wich was down when I tried it. If I copy out the applet tag and paste it in my own html file, and change to www.eyeone.com, then it work. Also get wrong magic number on most of the applets when using java 1.4.2_06
[/quote]
Strange, these links / games work just fine here… (I also use 1.4.2_06)
[quote]This was one of the games I made. Lots of fun making the 3d engine It was finished summer 2001.
[/quote]
Hats off! I remember I was very impressed when I first played it a few years ago. It’s a shame there not more applet games developed using that engine.
[quote]No native plugin. It’s a multiplayer peer to peer game. It is signed so it can send udp between the two clients.
[/quote]
Ok, it threw me an n4display.dll error once so I thought it was poking outside the jvm or something. Must have been the JVM choking itself again 
PS: Squareheads looks very promising! Shame that company died along with the project 
[quote] I totally agree that AgencyFX has the right ingredients to do so. In my opinion the problem is that most developers that’d like to develop such games dont have enough money / recources. Look at this forum, how much of the developers have the money or resources to put a talented team or game together?
[/quote]
But why does Java developers has less resources than a Shockwave developer; are they less motivated, less eager to take risks or have hard time finding investors (be it a nice mum and dad, a publicist or a VC) ?
What would be a “good price” for a toolkit, for a hobbyist/semi-professional java developer.
[quote] (Im sure most of you expirienced game developers know that even small games take a whole team)
[/quote]
True. The more talented you are only makes things easier and more robust, it doesn’t shorten your developing time (only R&D ) since you still have huge set “small easy thing” to do.
// Tomas
BTW thanks for the kind word about AgentFX