Computer operation started out as an extension of secretarial work, but computer science is something very different, which started out as something for maths and engineering graduates (i.e. mainly men). E.g. (Cambridge Mathematical Laboratory, 1948):
Recommended reading: http://www.npr.org/blogs/alltechconsidered/2014/10/06/345799830/the-forgotten-female-programmers-who-created-modern-tech
Even if I concede that you’re right (which I’m not), I’m not sure what your point is.
Many manufacturing jobs started out as slave work. Just because “that’s how it’s always been” doesn’t mean that’s how it should continue to be.
(just a sidenote)
Stuff I learned in school ôo :
My point is that programming != computer science.
I’m with Sam Harris on this one. He has a great speech (might be a ted talk) where he talks about the science of right vs wrong. Worth a watch if somebody feels like doing the googling.
Okie dokie. And what does that have to do with whether we should teach basic problem solving and logic to children?
Over here basic problem solving and logic is taught to all children from their first days in school.
Cas
I keep hearing this argument, and I keep replying with this, which nobody seems to have responded to yet:
If basic problem solving and logic are already taught to all children, then why is that the biggest hurdle that most novice programmers hit when they start learning how to code?
Taking a problem, breaking it down into smaller problems, and then approaching those smaller problems one at a time, is one of the most important skills a programmer has to learn. That’s not programming- that’s basic problem solving and logic. If those are already taught, why do so many people have so much trouble with it when they start programming?
It’s because it’s not taught in schools. And the best way to start teaching it in schools is through basic programming.
One element of basic logic is that statements which make category errors are not effective support for a position in an argument. So IMO you’re setting a bad example to any children who are reading this thread 
And I would put forth that arguing about whether I should be using the term programming or computer science (or even logic and problem solving) is a bit pedantic and doesn’t really have anything to do with the actual conversation.
I would further argue that saying “well this is how it was in the 1940s” is not a valid defense of a position, and in fact, only strengthens the other side.
But to each their own!
It really is taught in schools. Really. Computer programming is rather more than just logic and problem solving.
Cas
Again, going to have to agree to disagree. Hard to continue with one person saying “it is” and the other saying “it isn’t”.
But sure, advanced computer science is more than just logic and problem solving. Absolutely.
But like I keep saying, I’m not talking about advanced computer science. I’m talking about the basics. To repeat:
I’m not sure what in that list anybody disagrees with, other than “marginalization doesn’t happen”, which I think I’ve answered already.
I didnt meant to be non-polite, sometimes its hard to find the correct words in a foreign language.
But FYI , there are already schools ( high schools ) that allow the student to pick a certain professional area and go study it too.
For example, informatic, art,etc
So i think this is already happening in some countries.
No hard feelings.
Yeah, I’m mostly speaking for the United States.
Though many complain about it here, the UK educational system does appear to be one of the better ones in the world.
Cas
That might be the source of all the disagreement. I’m only talking about the US system, which is, well, not great. Or at least not uniform, which is almost as important. I was lucky enough to go to a great public school. But many (or even most) students aren’t that lucky. Movements like Code.org aim to smooth out that discrepancy a bit.
If your education system already got rid of those discrepancies, then sure, what I’m saying might not make any sense to you.
I would move, but I hear you have to quarantine any animals you bring into the country for six months in a kennel, and I couldn’t do that to my cat!
Pedantry is an essential skill for computer programmers, because computers are more pedantic than all of us.
I’m arguing with your presentation of the situation in the 1940s that you’re using to support your position. I’m not arguing for or against the position itself. In fact, given that your main thrust is to promote teaching programming rather than to promote teaching CS, you could regard my nit-picking as improving your argument.
I will admit that I am rather loosey goosey with what I call “programming” versus what I call “computer science”. That loosey goosiness is intentional. I think people put a little too much importance on titles, but I can agree that code monkeying is a bit different than developing new advanced algorithms. I just think the line is a little fuzzier than people make it out to be.
Even so, I will say that teaching programming leads to teaching CS, so that line is even fuzzier when we’re talking about education.
This really raise question what was your first argument(started as feminine science) point?
The only reason I brought that up was to counter the argument that “computer science is naturally a man’s profession”.
I pointed out the fact that programming used to be seen as a “woman’s job” to show that these distinctions are entirely cultural (not biological).
I was not using it as an argument that we should encourage girls to learn about programming just because programming was traditionally seen as a “woman’s job”. I was simply pointing out that this standard has changed over time, showing that it’s cultural, not biological.
We have a cultural stigma that computer science is only for nerdy, relatively affluent, white males. Some people argued that this was a result of some biological predisposition of “women to pursue women’s jobs”, and I pointed out that programming used to be a “woman’s job” to show that this stigma is indeed cultural, not biological.
I’m really not sure what the argument against any of this is (other than Cas and I perhaps talking about different countries), but I’ve been unpleasantly surprised to see such a reaction against “maybe we should teach little girls about computers”.