Schemes to teach the masses to code

General Discussions
#101

Fine, but that’s not what we’re talking about. We’re not talking about taking the girls out of the classroom and sending them to a special brainwashing room where we force them to sit at computers and become programmers, while we leave the boys behind.

We’re talking about teaching EVERYBODY the BASICS, the same way we already teach the basics of art, and science, and math, and music. This isn’t even really talking about programming, it’s talking about basic problem solving and logic.

We’re talking about giving everybody THE OPPORTUNITY to CHOOSE to take more advanced programming courses, as a part of the official curriculum- the same way they can already take advanced courses in art, and science, and math, and music.

And sorry, but saying “that’s going to cause issues” isn’t a valid argument. Giving women the right to vote also caused issues. Ending segregation also caused issues.

#102

I just have a quick question to clarify my understanding of this extensive debate/discussion.

Is the basic idea just to make available the foundations of fields like computer science, such as logic, reasoning, etc. in a bias/precedence-free environment?

Just a question, as I have been reading through this discussion as it unfolds, but I have not been actively involved.

#103

We’re talking about movements like Code.org. Check out their website, since that explains it better than I’m probably doing.

But the basic idea is that we should teach basic problem solving and logic in elementary school, using “pseudo-programming” like Scratch, or even simpler things like LightBot. This will help with the marginalization of women and minorities, and will come in handy in general education.

We should also make computer science part of the official high school curriculum: not as a requirement, but as an option, in the same way that advanced science classes are available to everybody. This will also help with the marginalization issues.

You can peruse Code.org for more info, but those are the basics.

People are arguing against that because “not everybody needs to be a programmer” (which isn’t even what Code.org is saying), and because “teaching girls how to program is unfair and unnatural”, which I simply vehemently disagree with.

Now you’re all caught up! :stuck_out_tongue:

#104

So after everyone learn to code and programmers lose their jobs and||or be paid less, what are we going to do?

*My job is not as a programmer.

#105

Like I said, nobody is saying that everyone should become a programmer.

But I don’t agree with your argument anyway- after everybody learned how to read and write for themselves, what did the scribes do?

If everyone became an artist, then artists would lose their jobs and/or be paid less. Does that mean we should stop giving crayons to kids?

#106

Your argument is like :
Alright, as long as it doesnt affect me, its not my problem.

So ok. I think we should make 10 000 KevinWorkman accounts.

And each one of them will post something.

What makes you think your post would be more relevant than the other 9 999 kevins?

If you do get my point.

Or even better.
Tell us your dad job.
So we all copy his job.
When he get unemployed you might change your opinion.

#107

I don’t think Kevin is saying that everybody should be a programmer, he is just saying make it available as an option.

#108

Even if its just Code Skill, it will still take out the value of the programmers.

I know he has good intentions but we have to realize it will ruin the life of professionals.

#109

Again another point , if you arnet interested in programming , as a lot of people arnet , then trying to give them it as a continuous option will just leave you with a bunch of shoddy coders.

#110

I don’t even think Kevin is so much saying teach everybody to program, just introduce them to basic things like logic and give anybody with an interest opportunities to extend that.

#111

Which will give a bad image to good programmers and flood with no-skill coders.

#112

The even bigger elephant is that you can’t fairly say that a lack of women in STEM fields comes down to these supposed “differences” until you make everything else equal. I find it strange how seemingly logical thinkers will often default to this dodgy, entirely unscientific way of thinking when it suits the case that they fundamentally already want to make. You’d never say, “Well, let’s find out which of these two cars is faster … here, we’ll let this one race a straight line on the salt flats of Utah, and this one can take a winding mountain road in the Alps.”

[quote]I’ve never seen this marginalisation in action… what does it look like?
[/quote]
A little something like this.

This homegrown, informal HR technique is pretty widely flaunted in the world of tech, especially when in proximity to Silicon Valley, where there’s a purposeful aversion to the standard ways of handling these sorts of business issues.

#113

Maybe I’m just lucky to have never worked anywhere like that. Or maybe just too old.

Relatedly, I seem to be unemployable these days. Rejected from last two interviews I’ve done. I’ve decided it’s because I’m an asshole.

Cas :slight_smile:

#114

Well…

Suddenly one day she’ll lose interest because a kid at school laughed at her for not knowing that programming is for boys only.

(But if, fingers-crossed, she stays interested, I’ll add another up-vote for Scratch. It does feel to me like the up-to-date equivalent of making magical things happen by typing in BASIC code from magazine listings.)

#115

Wrong. I could sit back and say “eh, I’m a white dude, this problem doesn’t affect me”. But that’s like saying “eh, racism doesn’t affect me, so why bother trying to fight it”. This affects everybody, which is why it’s such a big deal.

That argument doesn’t make any sense. In fact, we do teach every kid how to read and write. Anybody can post on forums. Do you think we should stop teaching kids how to read and write, that way your posts are “more relevant” than theirs?

Sure. My father works at a bindery. What exactly does that have to do with anything?

Keep in mind that we do teach children the basics required to get into his profession.

Oh come on. “Ruin the life of professionals?” If you really think that teaching basic problem solving and logic to children is going to threaten your career that much, then by all means, choose a different career.

We teach basic science to children as well. Does that ruin the lives of every scientist? Or does it, somehow, improve the overall quality of science as a whole?

Art is also an option to everybody. And yeah, there are probably a lot of shoddy artists out there. Does that mean we should stop giving crayons to every child?

This logic is compeletely flawed. Again, should we stop teaching math to children, so we don’t flood the market with no-skill mathematicians?

It could be, and if that’s the case, then I’m jealous. But I would also suggest that it can be difficult to recognize marginalization when you aren’t the one being marginalized.

A thousand times this.

#116

Im not preocuppied with my career, i am with others.

If its just logic and basic basic code, its ok.

But if we are going to teach everyone C++ or programming languages… then its a different subject.

Although i like the idea, like in star wars universe, where everyone knows how to code and fix machines and stuff… we have to realize , things works different on real life.

And also, compare read/write ( basic ) to a complex activity like programming , its not. Period. Its not. ( i will leave at this ).

Also, i just used your “father” as an example.
I bet hes required a lot in his company, but imagine if tommorow we had x10 copies of him.
His employee would hire the copy that requires less payment. ( or a better cost x benefit )

Do you realize that?

~~

I really wanted to everyone to learn to code to so increase humanity intelligence and knowledge but… We have to realize again this is capitalism.People wont care and will just use it to get more cash.

~~

Why would a lawyer hire programmers to make him a software to manage his stuff if he can do it by himself?
Maybe lack of time, but the again, he could do it on his free time.Or have friends to help him and so on.

~~
And thats why, for now, i dont fully agree.

~~

“Again, should we stop teaching math to children, so we don’t flood the market with no-skill mathematicians?”

The market is filled with people cant make medium/hard math stuff.

So as a guy said earlier… why force people to learn something if they are not going to use it || forget it in some period of time ?

You cant teach for those who dont want to learn.

~~

#117

Umm … reading and writing are incredibly complex tasks, and yes, that’s compared to programming (and tons of other things, to boot). Just because people learn verbal language in a highly organic process (though the same absolutely cannot be said for reading and writing) doesn’t mean that it’s not complex. It means we’re lucky that immersion handles most of the fundamentals of communication all by itself.

There are, by the way, tons of people in the industrialized world who can’t write to save their lives. And I’m not talking about not being able to write masterpieces of fiction and poetry. They can’t even write a cogent email that would be fit to send to a coworker or boss. This is after 12 years of primary/secondary education and 4 years of university for a lot of people. Writing is hard for many of us, so hard that we actively avoid doing it (which, of course, means our skills will never improve in the first place).

Programming, by comparison, is easy as pie. Learning a programming language is a very simple process of picking up a rather limited set of syntax (far more limited than the syntax of any verbal/written language known to mankind). Beyond that, you’re always learning the same principles within any programming paradigm (OO, procedural, functional, etc), the same basic control flow functionality, etc.

Being a good writer is harder than being a good programmer, but being good at the former will almost always make you better at the latter, because if you can write down a problem in plain, descriptive English, you can usually solve it with a program. If you don’t know how to wrap your head around a problem, on the other hand (because you lack the facility with written language to break things down and communicate them clearly), the chances of being able to program a solution are slim to none.

#118

I would like to politely request that you actually read my posts before arguing with them.

We are talking about teaching problem solving and logic to children, using pseudo-programming like Scratch, or even simpler things like LightBot.

I would like to politely request that you actually read my posts before arguing with them.

Nobody is talking about teaching anyone C++.

And we aren’t talking about complex programming. I would like to politely request that you actually read my posts before arguing with them.

I reject your tone, but I will respond. We already do teach children the basics to get into pretty much every career. We teach them math, even if they won’t all become mathemeticians. We teach them science, even if they won’t all become scientists. Does that mean science and mathematics careers are a race to pay the cheapest person, since everybody knows math and science? NOPE.

That lawyer also probably knows basic math. Does that mean that no lawyers ever hire accountants? Your argument doesn’t make any sense.

That lawyer also probably learned about basic art when they were a child. Does that mean no lawyers ever hire artists?

That’s exactly my point.

Again, not everybody is going to grow up to become a mathematician, or a scientist, or an artist. Heck, some kids probably don’t want to learn math! So you also believe that we should stop teaching math, science, and art to children?

I would like to politely request that you actually read my posts before arguing with them.

#119

I’m not sure if you’re arguing with me or agreeing with me.

Yeah, we teach reading and writing to children. Yes, some children find it difficult.

We also teach math to children, and some children find that difficult as well. We also teach science to children, and some children find that difficult as well. We also teach art to children, and some children find that difficult as well. We also teach music to children, and some children find that difficult as well.

The core of my argument is that it would be a good idea to add problem solving and logic into the list of things we teach every kid, despite (or even because of) it being difficult for some of them.

#120

We made 2 lessons on http://code.org this week-end with my childrens and they really enjoy it !!

We will continue and i hope they would go further on this new hobby !!

I think that in 15 years laters, someone that is not comfortable with a PC and/or technology will be in a strong diffculty in the proffessionnal place.
So, childrens must learn theses stuff. It doesn’t mean they must learns to code but imho it should be a good things.

Séb.