re-building my own computer

Miscellaneous Topics
#1

Situation:

  • linux just committed suicide
  • a significant number of the tools I use on a weekly basis are linux/unix-only; some of them also need to be run on a fairly powerful box, so it’s not viable to just semi-permanently VNC to one of our linux servers to use them (and some are network-test tools, which you want to run with no extra net-connections open!)
  • I do have win2k dual-boot, and will keep it, since it’s a good emergency option (and I’ve got a bevy of win-only games on there ;))

It’s a laptop, so please don’t suggest hw upgrades - you’ll just make me jealous ;).

So, looking at unixes available now:

  • solarisx86: well, I applied for it from Sun ooh, about 2.5 years ago now, but despite assurances they never sent the CD’s. The last time I used s-x86 it had some serious “issues” - anyone around here using it on a daily basis?
  • xBSD: anyone using these? any compatibility problems with linux (e.g. problems with apps that run on linux but not BSD)?
  • Mandrake: never again; they FUBAR other people’s software, put the suffix “-mdk” on the end, and leave you in a no-man’s land of non-upgradeable software. Installer is also just as bad as RH at screwing up in major major ways
  • RH: (downloading Fedora now, as this appears the only decent option :(. I’ve heard RH has improved a lot in the last 1.5 releases (I’ve used RH5.2 through 8.0, and even 8 had serious problems :()
  • Debian: well, their site seems down, and anyway it’s useless to me to have an OS which you are only able to use software that is several years out-of-date (anyone using Debian who has a permanent no-brainer workaround to this that doesn’t rely on potentially buggy software? e.g. I’m in my present situation because of bugs in RPM, so I’d be very cautious about e.g. making things scary for poor little RPM’s by using some hybrid apt/rpm tool…)
  • Others…?

PS I’m still hoping for the day when all critical tools have java versions, and I don’t have to go through such agonizing contortions to balance a usable OS with one which actually runs my apps :(.

PPS If I had 2 grand to spare, I’d go and buy a Mac today :). Sadly, I don’t.

#2

I tried solaris, BSD, Mandrake, RH, Slackware, win2K

the only thing who worth the try is Debian

yes stable is stable so not up-to-date (interesting if you run a critical web-server, but not much), but SID (aka unstable) is really up to data (gnome 2.6, Xfree 4.3, etc…)

I run it since 3 years, I don’t even remeber how the installation looks ;D

#3

BTw never crashed deb/dpkg database … crashed many time rpm database

#4

But what about the kernel, for instance? Given that the linux kernel has major “issues” wrt not being upgradeable unless you are a saint, you often end up stuck with whatever you started with (I don’t have time to fix bugs in the linux kernel and associated tools just to perform an upgrade; I’m sure people with more time on their hands have an easier time of it).

Basically, after 30 minutes of searching, I cannot find an answer to such simple questions on the debian site, and the install process seems not much improved from last time I tried it - and I really don’t have time to faff about learning the inadequacies of a new installer (I hate to say this, but I know most of the bugs in RH’s installers, including those that have never been fixed in 5 years - and that means I know how to work around them).

:(.

#5

Hi
Don’t quote me on this, but I believe debians next version (sarge) will have a 2.6 kernel, not really interesting except you can already get it, take a look at these links.
http://www.debian.org/releases/testing/
http://www.debian.org/devel/debian-installer/

I’ve not looked at it myself, nor debian, but the next time I get a spare box I will as running a source based distro (gentoo) is becomming more anoying each time I have to rebuild everything including X + gnome.

Endolf

#6

Surprisingly I recommend Debian. ;D You can always run testing/unstable, if you want newer software. Actually a lot of developers do this.

#7

Right. People keep saying that, but everyone avoids answering the question, so Debian remains a mystery. I don’t understand why no-one will answer, except to make vague noises that Debian is kind of good. This is like the Deb docs - they don’t actually tell you anything, as though info is only provided on a “need-to-know basis, and we’ve decided you don’t need to know. Do not question this!”

#8

You can use a stable kernel, which is maintained and automatically updated by the security team (2.4.18).

[quote]Basically, after 30 minutes of searching, I cannot find an answer to such simple questions on the debian site, and the install process seems not much improved from last time I tried it - and I really don’t have time to faff about learning the inadequacies of a new installer (I hate to say this, but I know most of the bugs in RH’s installers, including those that have never been fixed in 5 years - and that means I know how to work around them).
[/quote]
That’s contradictory. You say “the install process seems not much improved from the last time I tried it” and “I really don’t have time […] new installer”. The woody (Debian 3.0 is called woody) installer is still the same since it’s release 2002. The installation is not really nice, but you can often stick with the defaults.

#9

Sorry, but what is “the question”?

#10

Completely useless. I’m not a linux newbie, so there’s no point trying to claim that an out-of-date broken kernel like 2.4.18 is “good enough”; it so obviously is NOT “good enough” to anyone who uses linux heavily. NB: As far back as 12 months ago I already had software that WILL NOT RUN on that kernel, and the ONLY SOLUTION is to upgrade your kernel!

This isn’t a matter of personal opinion, it’s reality. It sounds as though you may be one of those linux users who never quite stress their machine enough to discover the horrible truths of linux.

If the install process had improved, there wouldn’t be a great big time-cost to using the installer; the fact that their documentation is so woefully inaduquate makes it look extremely likely that the installer doesn’t work in lots of ways, doens’t have sufficient help, probably doesn’t warn you about things in advance - all of which means that I, as the user, am going to have to learn all the many ways in which their installer is broken, work out the documentation from guess work, and eventually thjink up cunning and mind-bending workarounds.

#11

In short, will all RPM software install and work perfectly on Debian, and what does the user have to do to achieve this?

How well can you install current releases of open-source software, bearing in mind that almost nothing is made available in debian by the authors, and very nearly everything is available in RPM (that is available in any pkg)?

How well does debian cope with RPM’s? How does it cope with them? I’ve seen a variety of different tools for installing RPM’s on Debian, but I don’t know how they work or what their quality is.

If there is any difficulty at all in getting software installed onto Debian, then it’s not an option for my desktop - linux software being what it is, you need to upgrade pretty much instantly on most stuff (e.g. every release of OpenOffice and Mozilla has so many critical bugs that for serious work you pretty much have to upgrade ASAP on every minor release, because the chances are your system is fundamentally broken in some way until you do. The same was true of the initial NT-4 servicepacks: NT4 without SP3 is a completely unusable OS: it’s broken in so many ways that most complex apps just don’t work. I’m sure eventually Moz and OO will reach the point where they work well enough that users can slow down a bit on the upgrades, but not yet.)

#12

For documentation you best look at madrake, suse and redhat. If I recall mandrake is not an option this time :). I’ve not used suse, but I have used deadrat. I’m currently using red hat on a managed box over in yank land somewhere, and run gentoo at home (for my sins). I’ve run redhat up t 7.2, and not touched it since untill we got the box in the states. I’m fairly pleased with up2date as a package manager, and so far neither me nor the box have managed to kill the rpm database (although I did it a few times with <=7.2 which is why I left it alone). Having said that, gentoo managed to screw portage over at one point, so I don’t supose it’s really any better. Now that up2date will solve dependancies for you, it seems much better than before it existed. Redhat still installs loads of crap for you as far as I can tell (although the box came ready installed), but i’ve got rid of the junk (like rpc sat happily listening away for the next attack). Redhat also back port alot of stuff into their own kernel, so although we have a 2.4.21 kernel running, it has useful things in it like NPTL.

I’m in two minds as to what to try next distro wise, either debian sarge or redhat again, one gives you nothing to start with, the other gives you everything including the kitchen sink, even though your in the bathroom, so you have to cut some stuff out. It sounds like redhat is your best option, purly from the docs point of view, add to that the fact that redhat kernels have lots of extras in (dunno if jinput will work mind :)) and my suggestions would be redhat.

HTH

Endolf

#13

[quote]I’ve not used suse, but I have used deadrat.
[/quote]
Suse is pretty good, but it’s got some mental handicaps; if/when those get fixed, I suspect it will be one of the best (alongside Debian for non-desktop deployment).

Ditto had the odd RH corrupted RPM-db in 6.x and 7.x

Mandrake killed the RPM database on multiple installations; incidentally it also managed to “disable” man pages, so that all RPM’s would silently delete/not-install their docs, and there was no way to turn this off (even completely replacing the RPM version, completely wiping the RPM db and starting again, etc). I never found a linux user of sufficient skill who could work out WTF Mandrake had done…

Too true (was why I ran away from RH in the first place!).

A warning for all: Redhat 10 (or fedora, as the irritating marketing ****ers insist on calling it) is just as bad as it always was in terms of lieing to your face about what it will install. e.g. I tell it “no Gnome”, and see loads of Gnome-only packages installing. e.g. it lets you get right to the end of the install before hinting that it’s not going to let you select pacakges, because you’re not as godlike as the RH engineers and shouldn’t be allowed to - unless you entered the expert install at step 1. (these being the same godlike RH engineers who can’t understand that “No Gnome” means “Do not install any packages that require or are a part of Gnome”).

Oh, and they’ve downgraded the disk-paritioner - it now has fewer options than the RH7/8 one(s) and is harder to use.

Basically: A “classic” release from RH…:wink:

#14

[quote](dunno if jinput will work mind :)) and my suggestions would be redhat.
[/quote]
JInput was one of the things I needed a kernel more recent than 18 for (because the hardware doesn’t work without a driver that doesn’t work without something later than 22 IIRC…).

So…I could be doing some JInput graphics-tablet testing for you soon :).

#15

[quote]So…I could be doing some JInput graphics-tablet testing for you soon :).
[/quote]
oh arse, thats bound to go wrong :). would be interesting to see the crator that creates when it goes boom though :slight_smile:

#16

PS: to anyone else who wants to try RH10, here’s some help.

In order to make the install work properly, you’ll probably need to use the undocumented expert mode. Now, this used to be documented, and gives you extra options. In their infinite wisdom, they’ve apparently removed the option.

But…if you’re an old-hand with RH, and you remember what the instructions USED to say on the opening screen, about how to get into expert mode, and just try it, it still works! Ah, how I love RH!

So, where it says “hit enter to install linux, or “linux text” to use the text install” do neither. Type “linux expert” instead. You will get the text-mode installer but with extra options, some of which IMHO are not so much “expert” options but “standard install options that every user should be allowed”. For about 5 years mandrake’s installer has let you switch into expert mode at any point; RH are still in 1980, where something as monumental as changing a boolean flag requires you to restart the install from scratch. Sigh…

Incidentally, there also seems to be considerably less interactive help than in old versions of RH. I could be mistaken; it’s been a long while.

PPS: this has already added 2.5 hours to my re-install time; I have to re-start from scratch. Just as I expected!

#17

I hope:

  • it’s not going to cause any collateral damage :o
  • …you’re going to fix it once I start giving you the bug reports :wink:
#18

[quote]In short, will all RPM software install and work perfectly on Debian, and what does the user have to do to achieve this?
[/quote]
No, you should only install RPMs in corner cases. You can convert RPMs to DEBs using a tool called “alien”. I don’t recommend installing an RPM directly.

[quote]How well can you install current releases of open-source software, bearing in mind that almost nothing is made available in debian by the authors, and very nearly everything is available in RPM (that is available in any pkg)?
[/quote]
Your assumption is not right. There’s quite a lot of software available as debian packages. If you want current releases of open source software, you can use testing/unstable. Another options are backports (packages ported from unstable to stable).

[quote]How well does debian cope with RPM’s? How does it cope with them? I’ve seen a variety of different tools for installing RPM’s on Debian, but I don’t know how they work or what their quality is.
[/quote]
The tools are probably good (not that the average user ever needs them), but if a package was designed for say Redhat 9, it may have wrong dependencies and the installation and deinstallation scripts may be designed for Redhat and not for Debian.

For which open source software, which you need, is there a package for Redhat, but none for Debian? What software do you need?

[quote]If there is any difficulty at all in getting software installed onto Debian, then it’s not an option for my desktop - linux software being what it is, you need to upgrade pretty much instantly on most stuff (e.g. every release of OpenOffice and Mozilla has so many critical bugs that for serious work you pretty much have to upgrade ASAP on every minor release, because the chances are your system is fundamentally broken in some way until you do.
[/quote]
Updating is not a problem at all. Debian package management is excellent.

Give it a try. The installation is ugly, but with some good will you will be rewarded and have a really fine system for years. Debian is surely not perfect, but I think you’ll like it.

#19

IME, only one time in ten (if that) is there anything other than RPM. I install an awful lot of software, and this pattern is repeated everywhere. There are even still a significant number of apps that are only distributed as tar.gz (ARGH!) or even worse, as source (!!!). I can’t produce any statistical data, beyond the fact that my experience seems shared with every friend and colleague who has ever been a linux admin.

This was the excuse that used to be common for not providing RPM’s. However, in the last few years I’ve found that almost every RPM installs fine on other non-RH systems (except where you have a screwed-up system, e.g. Mandrake which just breaks the whole of KDE in undocumented ways).

Yes, I’m convinced of the above two points. Next time I have a server to install, it will be stable Debian (although not this time: I’m installing a server as well as my workstation, and the server needs a modern kernel AND I only have time to do it because I’m doing the workstation install anyway.).

But most open-source projects make the base assumption that all users will upgrade to the latest version instantly. Witness MySQL: a product (and company) which has an official policy of never fixing bugs in old versions. Staying with one major version of MySQL is not an option (never an option) because of the hundreds of critical bugs marked “WONTFIX” and “upgrade to 4.x.x. instead” even when the original reporter has made it clear that this is not an option (I guess that’s one way of making more money: follow the MS model, and intentionally lower the quality of your software so that more people will pay for the support…).

PS: RH-10 is even worse than I thought: they’ve actually entirely removed the ability for the user to choose packages (although almost all the other “expert install” options are still there). I guess they just got embarassed at how crap their code for choosing packages was (c.f. my notes about their inability to understand te concept of “not Gnome” above)

#20

[quote]IME, only one time in ten (if that) is there anything other than RPM.
[/quote]
Completely wrong. I never needed an RPM and I install quite a lot. I’m sure, that this is not just personal experience. It’s often a lot easier to find an appropriate deb (mostly it’s just “apt-cache search $package”).

[quote]This was the excuse that used to be common for not providing RPM’s. However, in the last few years I’ve found that almost every RPM installs fine on other non-RH systems (except where you have a screwed-up system, e.g. Mandrake which just breaks the whole of KDE in undocumented ways).
[/quote]
Why, the hell, should Debian provide RPMs? They have DEBs.

You made up an artificial problem, which doesn’t exist. If you don’t believe me, then tell me, which open source applications you need. You didn’t answer this question before.

[quote]Yes, I’m convinced of the above two points. Next time I have a server to install, it will be stable Debian (although not this time: I’m installing a server as well as my workstation, and the server needs a modern kernel AND I only have time to do it because I’m doing the workstation install anyway.).
[/quote]
If you need a modern kernel, then type “apt-get install kernel-image-2.6.5-1-386”.