Performance Myths

Performance Tuning
#41

Well, Sony have flat-out stated that they’re making the PS3 even more difficult to program than the PS2, just to raise the bar. The idea is that with companies being forced to use better programmers or get out of the market, the game quality will improve. With that in mind, they should avoid Java entirely as it opens up the field a lot more than they’d like.

I personally don’t see the connection between more proficient programmers and better games, and don’t think such a strategy will actually pay off for Sony. But time will tell.

I’ll take five on “Sony(Games) are too busy designing PSP and PS3 to care much about Java - why do they care what the games are written in anyway?” ;D

#42

[quote]Well, Sony have flat-out stated that they’re making the PS3 even more difficult to program than the PS2, just to raise the bar.
[/quote]
I’d really like to see a reliable quote on that. Everyone I know on that side of the coin is very concerned about supporting the developers so they get product out the door, not making it harder for them and being a weakly supported platform.

Sounds like someone misunderstood something they heard someone else say, to me.

#43

[quote]I’d really like to see a reliable quote on that.
[/quote]
You know, I’ll have to take that comment back. :-X I’m sure I read it somewhere (stated as an official quote), but I can’t seem to find it now. In the absence of any evidence, I take it all back. Apart from my wager, that still holds! :wink:

[quote]Sounds like someone misunderstood something they heard someone else say, to me.
[/quote]
I guess it’s the kind of thing that can easily happen with what they’re doing. There’s been so many conflicting reports about the PS3, when it’ll be shipped, whether it’ll use Cell or not (“not” at last count - that’s been slipped to PS4)… ???

#44

I’ll bet a PS3, that Java will be on a PS3!

#45

Ooops, sorry! I originally included it, but thought better of risking a figure :).

5-1: since Sony have quite a history of innovation (recall the PS’s birth: a collaboration with Nintendo, which Nintendo pulled out of, and Sony eventually went ahead with anyway), and are quite willing to do unusual things to win a market-share battle (note: MS have a tendency to do “the same old things” instead). Also, Sony are painfully aware that PlayStation == Sony’s saviour, and that they conquered a new market through fundamentally changing the audience (altering the demographic of games players, from teenagers to wealthy trendy 20/30-somethings).

So, I reckon there’s a fairly good chance of it.

PS Warning for the unwary: I don’t have to pay out on this until Sony goes bankrupt, because until then, they might at any time bring out a JVM :wink:

#46

ok, heres a tricky 1.

Which will we see first,
Java on the PS/GameCube or
C# on the xbox :o

#47

If you would care to look at the Kaffe Ports page you will notice that this open source JVM has been available for the PS2 for some time: http://www.kaffe.org/ports.shtml

Kaffe has been ported to a vast number of platforms, mainly those ones that Sun can’t be bothered with, such as BeOS or Amiga OS. This is the benefit of open source.

The link points to a Japanese web site( http://www.sofarts.com/oldnew/computer/env-soft/pc-unix/ps2linux/kaffe.htm ), but you will notice in the top left corner there is a button with “English” written in it, this will translate the page into something proposing to be English…

Now before you all start getting excited, I will point out now that it is meant for Linux for PS2:
http://uk.playstation.com/hardware/linux_hardware.jhtml?linktype=NAV
Note the 40Meg hard drive and the 8meg ram card needed.

However, this is not that much different from the rumoured spec for the new PSX featuring DVD writer, 120Meg H-Drive, internet connection etc (see http://www.psx2.com/news/view_news.php?time=1054179401#1054179401 )

But they miss out on any greater technical detail, as memory is going to be vitally important if you are expecting anything other than crappy MIDlets to run on it.

The point being is that its got to be running on some OS for internet connection, and as most likely Linux would be chosen (cant see Windows CE some how).

This also highlights another problem, speed, the CPU in the PS2 runs at 294Mhz and is a RISC processor, with 8K data cache its going to be hard on Java.

But I couldn’t find the memory bus speed, or the width of the data bus (32,64, 128 bits), used to know it but have forgotten. It also uses dreaded RD-Ram (Rimbus anyone? Thought not), Which is fine for bandwidth but has very poor latency. These are more important.

32 Meg of ram, of which 4 Meg is Vram hardly cuts it today either.

(A technical overview of the ps2 : http://www.arstechnica.com/cpu/1q99/playstation2-pr.html Take with a pinch of salt.)

Woz.

Don’t expect a hotspot compiler, which is arguably a disadvantage to entertainment software anyway.

#48

That’s true and like it should be.
However, unfortunately, my experience from IT industry is that due to deadlines and a lot of other political reasons the last step oftenly “dies”, sometimes the second step too.
Probably this is why so many games aren’t fully playable until the 10th patch. :expressionless:

Ok, lucky those at Unreal. When they’ve been asked by their puplisher (a French one?), when the game is ready, their lead developer answered: “It’s finished when we’re done.” :slight_smile:

#49

Smaller developer studios usually can’t and won’t afford to pay a sum of 25000 $ (roughly 25000 ¤) for just an official PS2 development kit. Further AFAIK they’ll have to let review an entirely finished level of their game at Sony.

So I think it’s correct to think that the big console companies like Sony, Nintendo and Microsoft (just three, isn’t it?) don’t want to have smaller development studios to make games for their consoles. It’s a nearly closed market, where only the big game companies are allowed to play (and these are very few).

When I look at some smart PC games coming from (very!) small developer studios, I’d say you should not just allow big companies to produce games. For example Roller Coaster Tycoon has been and still is a top seller for years now. It’s been done by Bravehearts: one developer, one artist, one musician, wow. :slight_smile:
(I better won’t mention that Chris (Sawyer) didn’t do it in Java, but in 80x86 assembler.)

#50

I played the Unreal 2003 demo the other day. I was extraordinarily disappointed. But that’s OT.

Cas :slight_smile:

#51

Sony and Microsoft specifically have had specific programs for smaller developers, but they do require some money up front. The major publishers have always considered that both a deterrent to people who weren’t serious and a way to defray the cost of any hardware and support they’d provide. Of the two, Microsoft has had the best/cheapest/most accessible program and it actually acted as a fast track for a lot of XBox developers who were new to the business.

#52

Your cause and effect here are linekd pretty weakly.

Consoles are sold at a loss.

One of the first profit streams the makers see are the dev kits. Thats why they are so expensive, the makers still have a ton of development costs to pay off on the console itself and they wont pay them off selling consoles. Theya re spreading the cost of creating the market out aross al lthose who want access to the market.

(Eventually lower cost PSONE dev alternatvies came out, I’m sure eventually the same will be true for PS2.)

To assume that this is some great conspiracy designed to specifically thut out small developers though is bordering on the diagnosably paranoid.

Many small developers in fact DO develop for these consoles. They do so by developign under contract to larger studios who can affords to front the money for the dev kits. (When I was at Crystal Dynamics we released a number of games that were done this way.)

#53

I was talking to BongPig of PomPom about their Xbox port, and it seems they haven’t had to pay a penny to get the dev kit - M$ UK just took one look at their game and said, “Cool, that’d be great on XBox, here’s the stuff you need”.

So it looks like M$ have figured out that the side effect of excluding smaller developers is something else they could absorb. And of course, they’re right - it’s very, very foolish charging developers to work on your platform. And M$ have known this for years.

How will Sony respond?

Cas :slight_smile:

#54

Exactly.
Maybe I’m missing something here, but the argument that Sony doesn’t want to exclude small dev studios but their 1st profit streams are dev kits with huge price tags puzzles me. ???
It seems so short sighted.

#55

I think our definition of “small” is considerably smaller than what Sony thinks it is. Small < EAGames or Activision as far as they’re concerned…

Cas :slight_smile:

#56

[quote]Exactly.
Maybe I’m missing something here, but the argument that Sony doesn’t want to exclude small dev studios but their 1st profit streams are dev kits with huge price tags puzzles me. ???
It seems so short sighted.
[/quote]
Its the early adopter thing, just liek any other consumer device.,

Early adopters pay a premium to help pay off dev costs.

Its just that in consoles the early adopters are developers. Its far better in consoles to milk the early developers and get a lot of consoles out quickly then milk the early customers and screw up your launch.

Its really all very staightforward if you understand anything about consumer electronics marketing.

#57

So a dev kit is your typical ‘consumer device’? :-/
I guess you have to be very confident that all the big game developers establish your console soon enough after launch. If I were a multimillion company like sony having stiff competition from MS and Nintendo, I’d see a lower price tag for the dev kit as a good investment for having more games on shelves early.
But then again I know nothing about consumer electronics marketing. :-*

Erik