OSI president asks Sun to opensource Java

Miscellaneous Topics
#81

[quote]The Java lobby guys suggested at one point to look at the source and submit bug fixes to Sun… I nice thought, but the quality of the fixes would likely be very low…
[/quote]
I completely disagree. I once sent a bug fix to Sun for horrendous performance in java.net.URLEncoder. I just took their existing source code and modified it directly. The change made it something like a 1000x faster depending upon the size of the input. That bug fix was incorporated almost immediately into the latest JRE. Now tell me - who was the writer of low quality code?

God bless,
-Toby Reyelts

#82

That’s a very good example indeed.
I liked Ricks idea at the Javalobby forum when I read it some time ago. Sounded very coherently.

Unfortunately many people have got utterly subjective problems with OpenSource in general, and no matter what and how you argue they won’t like the ideas. :slight_smile:

God bless.

#83

I didn’t mean to suggest that all the bug fixes submitted would be crap or tat super awesome things wouldn’t be contributed either… I meant to say that people will tend to fix the bug from their own perspective… and sometimes that will mean side effects for someone else. Also, the JRE is huge and the potential to introduce bugs when attempting to fix something is greater for someone less familiar with the code.

I still like the idea of submitting possible fixes with bug reports to Sun or providing the information through the feedback channels they have in place. I am concerned that the number of bad programmers outweighs the number of good programmers and that the idea may generate significant noise for the folks at sun to deal with when they are analyzing the submissions.

#84

[quote]I still like the idea of submitting possible fixes with bug reports to Sun or providing the information through the feedback channels they have in place. I am concerned that the number of bad programmers outweighs the number of good programmers and that the idea may generate significant noise for the folks at sun to deal with when they are analyzing the submissions.
[/quote]
Given the number of whinges from within Sun about shortage of resources, perhaps a bit of time spent trying to create more effective channels for external input might be well spent.

#85

I found this article by Charles Ditzel worth reading:

http://cld.blog-city.com/read/492917.htm

It discusses some of the mistakes in Eric Raymond’s and Michael Tiemann’s (Redhat) points of view. It’s not perfect, but brings up some interesting numbers.

Nevertheless Charles Ditzel’s article doesn’t discuss the advantages and disadavantages of an Open Source Java implementation in general (most of the things are specific to Raymond and Tiemann). For instance it mentions how popular Java already is, but doesn’t evaluate if the popularity would grow even more. It mentions how free the JCP is, but doesn’t make concrete statements, if it is better than Open Source or not (and why).

#86

http://www.javalobby.org/thread.jspa?forumID=61&threadID=11559

#87

Actually IBM has had their own code-base for some time. They do remain licensees (it lets them see what we are doing and how, among other uses a handy thing for a compeititor to have.) I can’t say I know for certain that all the Sun code is gone from their VM but it seems to me thats what they told me…

#88

We do make some revenue from Java licensing (IBM and Apple are two examples.) I suspect the one liner you quoted is out of context. Sun is not a charity nor in the position to be overly charitable. Maybe when we traded at 120 and the dot coms were lined up to give us their VC bucks we could, but today we are definitely as in need of revenue as anyone else in the industry.

Frankly if your argument were true it would not be an argument for Sun giving away Java, it would be an argument for Sun abandoning it.

#89

[quote]For now I think it’s the best solution to use free Java implementations, for the ones who like the idea of Open Source or must not depend on non-free software. I think if Sun really wants to encourage an Open Source implementation, they should make the compatibility tests free and easy to use. I think this won’t happen soon (correct me, if I’m wrong). There are some compatibility test tools out there, but it would be good to have an official one.
[/quote]
Okay your wrong. :slight_smile:

We can’t make the tests free because they are labor intensive but we DID endow a number of grants top cover the costs of such tests for important open source projects. If someone has a good open source VM implementation and all they were missing was the funding to get it tested so it could be called Java, then they should approach Sun with it and I would be willing to bet a weeks salary something could be worked out.

We’ve done such things in the past (eg The Blackdown Java3D).

#90

That’s very interesting. I’m now a bit more in touch with the Open Source Java community and see a lot of activity there. Can you point me to articles or official statements, which emphasize what you say?

#91

Well I disagree it was taken out of context. Assuming the quote is actually accurate, it seems relevant to the discussion. But I agree that in Sun’s current financial position it would be hard to justify just handing over something that is a revenue generator.

My original thoughts still stand though. It seems plausible that offsetting the costs of future development of Java by the use of an open source model (distributing development around a number of companies/individuals), judicious use of commercial licenses, TCKs, etc might outweigh the revenue gathered through straight licensing alone (all guesswork of course :wink: ). A difficult hypothesis to prove or disprove by anyone lower than a few rungs down the management ladder at Sun, I suspect.

#92

http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2004-02-24-023-26-OP-CY-DV

#93

…followed by a competitor trying to get a piece as well.

IBM urges Sun to make Java open source
http://news.com.com/2100-1007_3-5165427.html?tag=nefd_top

#94

Interesting, so now we go back to the point that Jeff brought up. Why doesn’t IBM open source THEIR implementation if they think it is such a great idea??? (I still wonder if they have some Sun code in their implementation and are therefore covered by terms of Sun’s license.)

#95

Considering how much propoganda (I mean publicity ::slight_smile: ) IBM give their open source projects, it seems unlikely they wouldn’t take advantage of the opportunity to open source their Java implementation… so I suspect you’re right.

#96

The vision of Sun and IBM working together on improving Java is a nice one. I’m looking forward to Sun’s answer.

Regarding the thread topic I have found out that most developers of Open Source Java implementations were not happy with Eric Raymond’s letter (especially the fact that he didn’t contact them before). Sun will be contacted by developers with more serious and polite proposals, with the aim of making the development of an Open Source implementation easier, within the next weeks.

#97

[quote]Interesting, so now we go back to the point that Jeff brought up. Why doesn’t IBM open source THEIR implementation if they think it is such a great idea??? (I still wonder if they have some Sun code in their implementation and are therefore covered by terms of Sun’s license.)
[/quote]
I think that is the proposal.

From article: “Under the offer, IBM would provide technical resources and CODE for the open-source Java implementation while Sun would provide documentation and tests around the Java specifications, which Sun controls.” Doesn’t that sound like IBM wants to give their code? Btw. does anyone have a complete letter?

#98

[quote]Doesn’t that sound like IBM wants to give their code?
[/quote]
Who’s stopping them? They can do what they want with their code.

#99

Yeah, and then get eaten alive like when they gave SWT away. I’m much happier with this approach, trying to work with Sun. I found the letter:

"In the article, Simon asked, “Why hasn’t IBM given its implementation of Java to the open-source community?” I’m sure you recall the discussion we had over dinner in December around open sourcing Java. Simon’s comment appears to be an offer to jointly work toward this common goal. IBM is a strong supporter of the open source community, and we believe that a first class open source Java implementation would further enhance Java’s position in the industry by spurring growth of new applications and encouraging new innovation in the Java platform.

Here is the offer: IBM would like to work with Sun on an independent project to open source Java. Sun’s strong commitment to open source Java would speed the development of a first class and compatible open source Java implementation to the benefit of our customers and the industry. IBM is ready to provide technical resources and code for the open source Java implementation while Sun provides the open source community with Sun materials, including Java specifications, tests and code. We are firmly convinced the open source community would rally around this effort and make substantial contributions as well.

This would be a very exciting step for IBM and Sun. I am convinced that the creation of an open source implementation of the Java environment would be of enormous importance to the developer community and our industry’s collective customers. It would open a whole world of opportunity for new applications and growth of the Java community. In addition, this would accelerate the growth and adoption of technologies that are built on Java and are critical to our customers today, including Web services and Service Oriented Architecture.

Regards, Rod"

#100

Javalobby:

http://www.javalobby.org/thread.jspa?forumID=61&threadID=11577
http://www.javalobby.org/thread.jspa?forumID=61&threadID=11606