Oracle vs Google

General Discussions
#21

Indeed, but as @Abuse mentions, the fact that a de facto standard implementation exists that everyone actually codes to in practice means that a clean room implementation, well, simply introduced more fragmentation and bugs than reduced them. It was with hindsight and the best of intentions, a bad idea. The long and the short of it is, Sun should have fully opened the java.* packages and plonked an appropriate license on them such that anyone could use them for anything, and left the real licensing behind the sun.* packages and the actual Hotspot native binaries.

Cas :slight_smile:

#22

That would indeed be reasonable and doesn’t effect the intent of the way the current licensing is set-up. The real “interesting” parts are the non-java bits. But, of course, that will flip-flop if they every get their meta-circular VM to a releasable state. So I wouldn’t expect this to change.

#23

The verdict of the first half of the Oracle vs Google trial is out (second half will cover patent infringement). The jury has sided with Oracle by finding that Google partially infringed Oracles copyright with Android, there is still a chance that Google might be able to argue a ‘fair use’ defence but not looking good for them, full info here.

Update: another take on the outcome here, from which it doesn’t seem so bad for Google.

#24

Given the jury instructions were to assume that API’s are eligible for copyright there is really no way they could find that google hadn’t infringed. I also think that if API’s can be copyrighted the fair use defense doesn’t make much sense (they copied a substantial portion of the API). It would probably have been better to have a complete verdict of infringement + no fair use and then have the Judge rule that API’s can’t be copyrighted (something he has indicated he will be deciding).

#25

The only solid “infringement” is nine lines of code, from which Oracle is unlikely to show actual damages. Otherwise the jury found that Android copied the API, but that the judge is inclined to rule that the API is not copyrightable.

Even if some novel decision came out that an API is copyrightable, Google could certainly make a claim that Sun waived any claims long ago by having a program for certifying java implementations, then again by GPL’ing the codebase. They’re certainly going to make that claim for the patent parts.

You’ll probably find lots better analysis of the case on Groklaw, assuming you can stand the screechy sanctimonious vindictive paranoid bitch who runs the place, or her legion of sychophantic fans.

#26

This article claims a Google victory.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/07/google-oracle-ruling_n_1497545.html

#27

I’m glad that I’m doing most of my stuff with ECMAScript these days. What Oracle is doing there is really horrible for Java. Android was the best thing which ever happened to Java.

Obviously Google are in the wrong

How so? Sun was fine with it.

Besides, Oracle stole SQL’s API.

#28

Despite all my vested interests one way or another this case is so fascinating to me because I literally do not know on whose side I fall. The implications for the industry as a whole if Oracle are allowed to copyright an interface they publicly released are staggering. And yet Google clearly ripped them off. And yet it was almost certainly Sun/Oracle’s fault that Google had to rip them off. And yet Dalvik/Android are an irritating, slow, fractured implementation of J2SE which I could frankly have done without. And yet Android means I can use Eclipse and Java to develop software that doesn’t suck too much for a mass market phone. Boggle.

Cas :slight_smile:

#29

Source? Everything I’ve seen looks like a clean-room re-implementation. The ‘copied’ code is so trivial it’s not surprising it’s the same given the api contract it has to adhere to.

#30

Source : me. Well, consider this: you spend a million dollars designing an API, which basically means writing interfaces and abstract classes. Don’t write any actual implementation at all, and ignore the fact that quite often the implementation is what drove you to have to write quite a lot of those classes and interfaces in the first place. Comment everything meticulously as it’s public API.

Now print it all out.

That’s quite a lot of f**king work there. Probably an order of magnitude bigger than any project I’ve ever made.

You’d be bastard cross if someone just took all that without crediting you. I’d be livid.

Cas :slight_smile:

#31

Ah, you mean ‘ripped off’ in the sense of copied the api (which I agree, but would also agree with Google that that’s public domain), not ‘ripped off’ as in C&P’ed code (which Oracle are also suggesting, and I think they have a pretty poor case of).

#32

Yes, the cut n paste stuff is daft, but the API thing… that’s a really tough call, also because of the wider implications. Like for example, any reverse engineering efforts are basically suddenly in extreme peril, because whether reverse engineered or not, you have to copy the APIs. Consider the position of WINE and Samba to name but two.

So basically, it’s two huge nasty corporation dicking each other over and the implications of either of them winning are not good for anyone else. It’s almost a case for the DoJ to get involved and ensure that there’s no collateral fallout.

Cas :slight_smile:

#33

[quote]The jury also found that Android infringes on nine lines of Java coding, but that claim probably won’t be worth more than $150,000 in damages, based on statements made earlier in the trial. When an Oracle lawyer suggested Monday that the infringement verdict on the nine lines could be worth substantially more, Alsup said the idea “borders on the ridiculous.”
[/quote]
This makes the “What Religion Are You?” thread somewhat more pertinent ;D

#34

The verdict is in for the patent part of the case, the jury unanimously found that there was no patent infringement.

http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20120523125023818

Looks like its over for Oracle, even if they win the copyright part of the case (which looks unlikely), what they’ll get won’t even cover their legal costs.

#35

And the Golden State Warriors announced their intention to build a new stadium in SF, leaving behind the Oracle Arena.

#36

I guess this means Android will never have a Hotspot JVM, which is a bit of a shame.

Cas :slight_smile:

#37

When Sun had more of a lock on Java, they strangled J2ME with noxious licensing requirements that directly led to forks like Dalvik in the first place. I prefer a future where we have a choice.

#38

Yes, it is entirely, completely their own fault that this situation occurred in the first place.

Cas :slight_smile:

#39

Seems like no one’s posted this yet - http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20120531173633275

Basically, case dismissed (not that surprisingly), and Oracle gets nada (besides possibly a few bucks for copying of 9 lines of code). Cue the appeals! ::slight_smile:

#40

Oracle I think got a total of $150,000 for those 9 lines of code they found. Otherwise, their millions they spent on lawyers: gone! ;D