Hello all,
I have created the game Lux. It is similar to the board game Risk along with some nifty computer enhancements. Check it out and tell me what you think.
Screenshots and download can be found at: http://sillysoft.net
Looks nice, but it doesn’t have a webstart version and it looks like it has one of those annoying install wizards which I hate because they fill up your computer with crap - and why bother with that when I could just click once and play instead?
Hi Sillysoft… fancy seeing you here 
A webstarted version would be very much appreciated by the forum folk round here - we’ve sort of gotten used to the convenience!
Background info: Lux has been selling well on OSX afaik and it’s a real champion of the indie game developers cause. Well done that man, etc.!
Cas 
…and would mean we could add you to JGF :).
Hey Cas. Nice to see you, and thanks for the kind words. I guess it’s a small web after all ;).
About webstart, I totally see how it is by far the best way to package up something for display here. There are a couple of reasons why I do not have a webstart version. The first is that I didn’t design for it :-[. I use a location on the filesystem to store downloadable plugins and some other things. I admit that I do not know all the intricacies of webstart, so maybe there is a way to work around this?
The other big reason is that I do not think that webstart is the best option for the shareware business model. I want users who do not have java installed (or do not even know what java is!) to be able to run my game. To this end on Windows I use an installer with a thin native application that checks for a suitable JRE and helps the user install one if needed. By using the installer approach my game looks exactly like the other applications most users are accustomed to downloading.
Also, using an installer gives a ‘stickier’ experience. With webstart the user could run it, play a few games and then forget about it completely. They can also do this with an installer, but my program will still be sitting in their ‘Programs’ menu and maybe they will remember about it later. Of course it does provide an uninstaller that removes everything completely.
So that doesn’t make it any easier for you to try out, but I thought that I should explain my reasons. Some food for thought at least. FYI, I am using the excellent IzPack as my installer. It is written in java (except for a small wxWindows native launcher), and open-source.
IIRC all your negative points re: WS will be fixed by 1.5 when it goes gold (althgouh I’ve not tried them yet - I’m waiting for 1.5.0 before risking installing another beta JVM).
That aside, they are good points, and Sun’s WS implementation isn’t perfect. Not yet. In the meantime, you should just go ahead and make a webstart version in parallel, and then send the details to JGF (link below; instructions linked from front page) and it will sit nicely alongside all the other JGF webstarted games.
Well it is good to hear that webstart will be getting better. I can’t think of a way that they can get around the issue of a user not having java installed though. The .jnlp file would just get treated like an unknown filetype, no?
Is a webstart version required to submit to JGF? On the submit page it says that webstart games will get priority. That seems to say that non-webstart games would still be accepted.
[quote]Well it is good to hear that webstart will be getting better. I can’t think of a way that they can get around the issue of a user not having java installed though. The .jnlp file would just get treated like an unknown filetype, no?
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Have a look at the upcoming “CD-install” feature(s) - I’ve only glanced at that area, but it looked like it had potential (I figured I’d wait until it went gold before evaluating it in detaild - rather than get my hopes up and then cry ;)).
Good point; when JGF was started, less than 5% of the games being submitted were webstarted. Now more than 50% are, and of the last 15 each time we accepted one that wasn’t webstarted I’ve lived to regret it :(.
If you have a really good reason for not webstarting (I’ve only heard two so far, one of which is no longer valid (“I can’t webstart a J3D game”) and the other of which was tied to the fact that the game was windows-only - which resulted in me vetoing that game anyway), then we’d consider it (i.e. if you can convince me, I’d solicit feedback from the three or four volunteers who’ve been most involved in JGF so far).
But… you want to webstart your game, even if you don’t know it ;D.
Seriously, there’s a major “wow”-factor when people run these games with just a single click - no hassle, no install, and safe in the knowledge that it’s only saved in a cache, that will get autopurged if they download many more games and run out of space (OK, so most games demand full access priviledges, and many then write stuff to the hard-disk, so this isn’t entirely true). It’s like “Huh? This is easy, installs everything automatically, works straight away, looks good - and the game is fun too! Wow - no bad points!”.
I’ve shown the site to quite a few people where I’ve either been there in-person or on the phone, and it’s extremely gratifying to see the reaction.
(FYI: the latest was someone who I pointed straight at Squareheads. I think the term to describe his reaction is “gobsmacked”; phrases like “This is JAVA?!?”, “are you sure?”, “yeah, but it’s actually C++, right?” kept coming out - and this guy was a professional java developer)
EDIT: PS webstart on windows automatically offers to create a desktop shortcut for each new game you run. I see your point that you’d like to force people into having your stuff forced on their computer (hey, I recognise a good marketing tactic when I see one…) but IMHO it’s a lot more honest of you to make it optional - and with webstart, it already is.
Not that yours does, but to give an example of why it’s good that it’s optional: I have a pretty low opinion of the installers that in this day and age still force crap onto your start menu, crap on the desktop, crap in your explorer context menus, etc. That mentality gets associated more and more strongly these days with the GatorAds of this world - apps that install trojan adware alongside themselves.
[quote]Have a look at the upcoming “CD-install” feature(s) …
[/quote]
That appears to only concern applications installed from a CD. It would still be impossible for a user without java installed to run a webstart application off of the internet. Lots of people have java installed, but lots do not. By only using webstart you are abandoning all of those people.
[quote]If you have a really good reason for not webstarting … then we’d consider it.
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I gave my reasons for not using webstart in a previous post in this thread. You yourself said that they were good points.
[quote]Seriously, there’s a major “wow”-factor when people run these games with just a single click - no hassle, no install, and safe in the knowledge that it’s only saved in a cache, that will get autopurged if they download many more games and run out of space (OK, so most games demand full access priviledges, and many then write stuff to the hard-disk, so this isn’t entirely true). It’s like “Huh? This is easy, installs everything automatically, works straight away, looks good - and the game is fun too! Wow - no bad points!”.
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No bad points? Except the Squareheads webstart link does not work on Mac OS X (at least not for me). It looks like it is due to a bug with the Safari browser, but the effect is that it does not work. The file gets saved as a .php file and webstart does not start. Because I am familiar with webstart I renamed it to a .jnlp file and then webstart opened, but most people would not know how to do this. My point here is just that webstart is not error-free.
As well, it turns out that the Squareheads application doesn’t work on Mac OS X. It starts up, the screen goes blank and then it pops up an exception stack trace and quits. It seems silly that you care deeply about with the startup method of an application but not whether or not it is truly cross-platform.
[quote]EDIT: PS webstart on windows automatically offers to create a desktop shortcut for each new game you run. I see your point that you’d like to force people into having your stuff forced on their computer (hey, I recognise a good marketing tactic when I see one…) but IMHO it’s a lot more honest of you to make it optional - and with webstart, it already is.
[/quote]
My installer does not force the user to create a desktop icon. It has a nice little checkbox for them to decide whether or not they want it.
Everyone has their own favorite technologies and it seems clear that webstart is one of yours. However I humbly ask you to take a moment and look at the situation from my perspective. I have a finished java application. It has a working installer. It is not as simple as webstart, but it is still easy to use and even people without java installed can use it.
My goal is to sell my game to people as shareware. If people are unwilling to download and run an installer for a game that looks intriguing then I doubt that they would be willing to pay any money for it.
:(.
There is an activex component which Sun recommends that will do it for MSIE, and older versions of netscape.
We take all broken game links seriously - we’ve several times removed a game (and in the few cases where the author never fixed the problems, never re-added it) where we discovered the author broke it in some way. Hopefully the next version of JGF will have a more streamlined way of dealing with partially-working games - e.g. a system where anyone who tries and fails a game can alert an admin via a single click, no hassle, no need to email or etc.
Likewise, if you have time, send an email to ceo @ grexengine.com and I’ll get in touch with the author and try and sort out a fix.
The problem here is that the people currently most active in policing JGF and highlighting failures don’t have Mac’s (although there are several each with windows and linux), so we have to rely on 2nd or 3rd hands reports from OS X users - and on the whole, once a game works on linux and windows it’s accepted, since we can’t easily test OS X, and don’t want to delay adding games.
No game ever is, and whilst a game isn’t working we do our best to get it fixed or removed. Sometimes, despite the author’s best efforts, it’s impossible to get working - e.g. if it depends on LWJGL which doesn’t yet work on the Mac.
Only one of them suggests that you would suffer in any way by releasing a webstart version (I wouldn’t dream of telling a developer what they could and couldn’t do outside of what they expose on JGF) - and it is of course up to you whether you think the loss in custom by the lack of installer is more or less than the gain in custom from people who insist on webstart and those who find your site via JGF.
Yes, I do indeed hold developers to ransom: play by our rules, or don’t get the additional publicity. But if I didn’t, then the quality of JGF games would have a lower threshold, reducing the attraction to players, which would in turn reduce the benefits to the games that are featured - and we’d be doing less to improve the lot of java games developers and java games players. So, it’s something I have no regrets for doing.
Hopefully the above post explains that I do care but in this instance the problem is that no-one with a Mac has: played that game, AND found it didn’t work, AND bothered to tell anyone!
I hate to say “it’s in your power to fix this” in the OSS manner, but where the only alternatives are for one of us to spend $1000, or for people with Mac’s to spend a few minutes emailing us, I think it’s unreasonable to expect the former.
FWIW, I’m hoping that with the next version of JGF (which will give several people much more direct power of administration) a couple of Mac users will get more deeply involved (you each know who you are ;)).
And I ask you to look at mine: one of the attractions to JGF for both players and developers is the knowledge that it maintains a high quality. Another is that the games are extremely easy and low-hassle to play - almost all you just click and go (I haven’t checked recently, but off the top of my head I think there are one 2 or 3 that are neither webstart nor applets).
If I were to let go of the webstart pseudo-requirement, or leave it up to other volunteers to decide, then how long would it be before someone (reasonably enough) asked us to do the same with JAR’s (I’ll tell you: straight away, since we’ve already had 4 or 5 games ask for it, whose details we still have on file) - and how could we reasonably refuse them?
And then how long until they asked us to accept windows-only games? (again: 0 seconds: we already have one outstanding request to be included from a windows-only, .EXE-but-written-in-java, game)
And then how long before the number of places linking to JGF drops to almost nothing? (because, believe it or not, many places link to JGF precisely because it promises and delivers on truly cross-platform java gaming - e.g. how long before Sun domains stopped linking to us? Not a pleasant thought…)
It’s not really to do with favourite technologies. It’s more to do with the overall purpose of the site: the developer of the windows-only java game wasn’t pleased either when I personally refused to allow them in, and they felt perfectly justified in being included despite being windows-only (which I can fully appreciate - their game looks just as pretty and is just as deep as the best of those on JGF, yet they get an unfair disadvantage in terms of free promotion)…but to allow them on would vastly undermine several of the core points of JGF. Especially in a world where games studios still don’t see java as a feasible option for games development, where we have to fight to persuade publishers etc to accept java games (a fight which, of course, benefits all of us in the long run…).
Both players and developers need re-educating in order to raise the standard of games. For instance, if I hadn’t placed heavy emphasis on webstart when I started JGF then I’m sure that less than half those that are webstarted now would be - and they certainly wouldn’t have installers instead. Since you have to break a few eggs to make an omelette I will continue to insist that JGF retains it’s present policies precisely until someone comes up with a better alternative that doesn’t undermine what we’ve been achieving.
Sun is crap at marketing and to a non-trivial extent is screwing over java developers by their incompetence in this arena - they should be educating games players AND developers on what to demand and how to use java (respectively). Since they won’t, we have to do it ourselves.
And I would dearly love to help you - but not at the cost of damaging something that I and many others have worked hard to build up.
Incidentally, I personally think that your statement is too much of a generalization to be accurate. I happen to have seen enough non-programmer games players who hate installing things (“It makes my computer ****ing slow because it clogs up the registry, doesn’t it” - and other similarly half-informed incorrect “beliefs”!) for me to accept that perhaps it has the opposite effect.
[quote]No bad points? Except the Squareheads webstart link does not work on Mac OS X (at least not for me). It looks like it is due to a bug with the Safari browser, but the effect is that it does not work. The file gets saved as a .php file and webstart does not start. Because I am familiar with webstart I renamed it to a .jnlp file and then webstart opened, but most people would not know how to do this. My point here is just that webstart is not error-free.
As well, it turns out that the Squareheads application doesn’t work on Mac OS X. It starts up, the screen goes blank and then it pops up an exception stack trace and quits. It seems silly that you care deeply about with the startup method of an application but not whether or not it is truly cross-platform.
[/quote]
The web-server haven’t got the jnlp mime type set, and I’ve got no control over the server. So I’m stuck with the php workaround.
Squareheads uses LWJGL wich do not work with webstart on the Mac. The LWJGL team is raising funds to buy a mac, so I hope it will be fixed.
I agree with sillysoft with regards to using webstart for shareware games. Another problem with webstart is that the game can be lost if the cache is cleared. There is no way to make a backup of it, so you are dependant on the server that hosted the game to be up and running. If I buy a game, I wan’t to be able to play it for years. Wich means it has to be safely stored in my warez folder
…and nevermind blahblahblahh. He is on a crusade promoting webstart and JGF. He will argue forever in the hope that you will make the switch.
[quote]…and nevermind blahblahblahh. He is on a crusade promoting webstart and JGF. He will argue forever in the hope that you will make the switch.
[/quote]
That use of “crusade” is, of course, tongue-in-cheek - I’ve accidentally developed a reputation for being tiressly pro-webstart, and I don’t mind poking fun at myself ;D.
Interesting though that as of this writing 33% of players have ticked “I only play webstart games”. This audience is not exactly your target, but one would expect a fair amount of crossover, so it’s worthy of note nonetheless.
(and this is partly why we’ll be encouraging people to host their downloads on JGF directly with the next version - so that we can ensure you get all the stuff you need: mime types, jardiff (if it works), no bandwidth worries, no costs).
A very good point. Now, with what I’m proposing for Lux, anyone who played the demo with webstart would nevertheless still have to use the installer for the full version - and hey presto Tom’s fear is solved!
…meanwhile the rest of us are eagerly awaiting an “export” button or “make permanent?” (i.e. lock it into the cache) checkbox to come along with 1.5.x.
PS: sorry for massively expanding your thread with all this debate!
…but you did say
[quote]tell me what you think.
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;D. And it’s probably driven up the number of page views for you too 
[quote]There is an activex component which Sun recommends that will do it for MSIE, and older versions of netscape.
[/quote]
An activex component? No thanks, that is not a cross-platform solution.
[quote]The problem here is that the people currently most active in policing JGF and highlighting failures don’t have Mac’s (although there are several each with windows and linux), so we have to rely on 2nd or 3rd hands reports from OS X users - and on the whole, once a game works on linux and windows it’s accepted, since we can’t easily test OS X, and don’t want to delay adding games.
…Sometimes, despite the author’s best efforts, it’s impossible to get working - e.g. if it depends on LWJGL which doesn’t yet work on the Mac.
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You seem to know that LWJGL games do not work on Macs, and yet you say that the problem is that you cannot test stuff on macs? If you are looking to showcase cross-platform games then you should not include ones that use libraries that are not cross-platform. Or at least give a warning saying that it will not work for Macs.
[quote]If I were to let go of the webstart pseudo-requirement, or leave it up to other volunteers to decide, then how long would it be before someone (reasonably enough) asked us to do the same with JAR’s (I’ll tell you: straight away, since we’ve already had 4 or 5 games ask for it, whose details we still have on file) - and how could we reasonably refuse them?
And then how long until they asked us to accept windows-only games? (again: 0 seconds: we already have one outstanding request to be included from a windows-only, .EXE-but-written-in-java, game)
And then how long before the number of places linking to JGF drops to almost nothing? (because, believe it or not, many places link to JGF precisely because it promises and delivers on truly cross-platform java gaming - e.g. how long before Sun domains stopped linking to us? Not a pleasant thought…)
[/quote]
I call slippery slope. Just because you accept java games with alternate launch methods doesn’t mean that you would have to accept windows only games. They are totally different.
Does the JGF “deliver on truly cross-platform java gaming” though? The ‘JAVA is DOOMED’ program you have up there links to a setup.exe file!?! You don’t need a macintosh to know that’s not cross-platform.
! :-[ This got through because it was one of the very first games I compiled for JGF (before we even had a name, and the website was just a single page) and I had to be less choosy just to find any games :(.
I had completely forgotten it was a windows-only download. We’ll definitely do something about this now (to the extent of removing it completely if the author doesn’t have a x-platform version).
Thanks for spotting the mistake ;D
Create a file called .htaccess in the same directory as your *.jnlp file containing the line
AddType application/x-java-jnlp-file jnlp
this should do the trick on an apache server.