yup thats the reason i mentioned guidelines, so judges can just say it fails this guideline, so if developer want, he can just go away and try fix that part.
What if the ‘last’ judge is on holiday for two years, doesn’t feel like it, or hates the submitter.
You’ll find endless threads in the WIP section, where devs are bump-ing their threads, asking for judgements.
Just in case the result is ‘still a WIP’, they will update their app, and bump their thread again and again, requesting new judgements.
It will simply end up in a bumping frenzy, with lots of frustration, both for the judges (‘judge again??!’) and the devs (‘judge please??!’).
Much better to let the mods simply browse around the WIPs, and judge them as they see fit. It’ll need only 1 judge. A forum like this is simply not suited for fancy judgements. If anything, we need something outside this forum, on the same domain.
If you really think your game is so fantastic, make a website for it, or submit it somewhere else where the endusers van vote all they want. Done.
hmm, guess that does make sense.
Leaving it to the mods does sound alot easier and straight forward, but the rules/guidelines of what goes into the showcase needs to be tightened up and not just left to the authors discretion.
Please explain your opinion. Is it just because you’re sore about what happened with TUER or is there some other reason? Seeing as you’re the only real dissenting voice at this point, please give an explanation so we can better discuss the best course of action.
From everything else, here’s what I’m getting a picture of:
- We should just let the mods do whatever they want, any time they want, except that they must provide clear justification as to why a game was moved.
- We should create a “Cream of the Crop” showcase section (or whatever other name we want) that cannot be posted in except by moderators. Games will be moved there when the mods find something they particularly like, WIP or no.
- We should create a few guidelines (like kapta’s) that emphasize what we’re looking for in a completed game. Then if we move a game we will post the guideline that was incomplete.
Does all that seem reasonable? If we go with having the mods do all this, then I’m probably going to want to add a couple mods for the showcase sections, as this is a big job.
Riven got it bang on. Close the Showcase to posters. Let moderators find the good stuff and post it up there.
ps. don’t actually move threads. Moderators can invite authors to write a brand new post for their game.
Cas 
what princec said ! showcase should be invitation only at the discretion of the moderators.
If your game meets all the requirements to go in showcase and its not chosen take it like a man !
fi the moderator makes the thread then no problem (except kinda confusing).
but if the user makes the thread. then they should put the moderator who invited them. So if the moderator looks and didnt ever invite them, they can get put back.
IMHO, this should be up to existing moderators as in any other forum…
Having clear rules to decide whether a game is complete or not is fine and necessary (the author then has almost no reason to think it is an arbitrary decision), it is a good way to go but these rules have to be known and largely accepted by the whole community. In any case, I think that if you behave correctly, if you justify your position and if finally you ask the authorization of the author, you can move the game into the WIP section with his approval without frustrating him and without discouraging him.
If your “colleagues” and you had spoken in private to me, we could have found a solution that would satisfy everyone. You don’t put a game here in order to loose any control on how it is shown. This forum has to be democratic or some developers will go away because they will undergo the moderation. We have to be united. If someone feels integrated and respected in a community, he will perhaps invest itself more than if he considers his games are not shown as he would like them to. I don’t believe in authority, speak to people, people here are not stupid, they are able to create games. There is an emotional aspect that might complicate the way of making a decision when it concerns your own games but I’m sure we are reasonable enough to go beyond it to make fair decisions together as a team and not moderators versus developers, do you see what I mean? I don’t think many authors will refuse moving their games into the WIP section if you use some pedagogy.
I won’t answer to some very formal and conservative viewpoints. My attempt of finding a kind of unity comes to an end when it deals with politics here.
We are not forced to do everything like the others. We use Java for gaming, we are already different.
okay now that I read all the opinions and Ideas, I guess that the best option is really to leave it to the mods.
Maybe lock the games showcase only for the mods to post.
Anything but leave the game showcase unmoderated .
The large part of the community (everybody but you) accepts the moderators judge the game.
If somebody is discouraged by that, and to such a degree that he gets demotivated, then perhaps programming isn’t for him. A ‘work is progress’ status is not an insult. It is an opinion. Get over it.
[quote=“gouessej,post:29,topic:33911”]
The funny thing is, Jullien Gouesse, that you are not the center of the universe. Nobody cares whether your game is in WIP or in showcase. We might read the thread, use webstart to launch it, have problems, and that’s it. We don’t give a rats ass about which sub-forum it is in, and neither should you.
This forum is far from democratic. It shouldn’t be. Maybe we should have a say if we all paid for the server, bandwidth and maintenance. Again, your view of democratic seems to be: your opinion. Even if this forum would be democratic, it’s so abundantly clear that you’d still be a minority in your opinions and reasoning.
This vague handwaving might work in an ideal world, but not on a forum. It’s the task of a moderator to… moderate, not to comfort anybody in their struggles and heartache. Authority is what keeps most in this world together. People have tried otherwise - flower powerrrrrr and see how that worked out.
Anyway, let’s assume that we find 3 judges to judge some random game. They’d have to wait for eachothers opinion before they could make a final decision. Do you have any clue how long such things take to ‘synchronize’ ?And they can’t agree… oh well. Now let’s assume that our moderators have common sense… that’s enough to judge 99% of the games. Including TUER, because the mouse input doesn’t work. Ok? Thanks.
[quote=“gouessej,post:29,topic:33911”]
So what point are you trying to make?
For the same of argument, I won’t respond to your last comment.
Now that I think about it, I’m fairly sure I have the solution:
[x] WIP section
[x] Showcase section
[x] TUER section
ok great, think then everyone agrees that there should be a new section where you need to satisfy the rules/guidelines to get your game into.
In order to avoid any objections about topics being moved, I’d say simply leave the “Games Showcase” section as it is and merge the WIP into it.
Then start a new section ‘Cream of the Crop’ (or whatever name) section where games that moderators think meet the rules/guidelines can be moved too.
Hopefully everyone will be happy, titles of the sections can always be changed later 8)
Here’s my plan.
- Games Showcase will be renamed Works in Progress and the old WIPs forum will be merged with it.
- A new subforum, just called Showcase, so that it can be used for demos as well. Only mods will be able to post new topics there.
- There will be a clear list of guidelines posted in Showcase as a sticky so you can all see what you need to satisfy to get your game there.
- I will probably decide on two mods specifically for the Showcase section. If you’re interested in the job, please let me know.
That sounds great. =)
One of the criteria for having a game show up in the showcase should be that it’s actually a good game. This probably means “no breakout clones”. This in turn means there will be a bunch of finished games in the Works in Progress area, so that name might be a bit misleading.
Ah, nevermind, I don’t want to complicate things further.
Also, it’s quite interesting to go on about how things should be democratic when you’re a very vocal minority, and I’m getting tired of being bullied into not pointing out the elephant in the room.
Bahahahah!
I have a fairly simple solution but it just might work, moderators have the power to move threads, so if the game is a caugh Work In Progress it should be moved to the WIP thread, and if a game is polished and ready for release (does not mean the game cant received updates and what not) then it should be placed in the Game Showcase thread.
what about 3 subcategories like wip and 2 games showcases where one is for simple and beginner games and other for average and above games, moderators could decide into which category game fits.
It’s just a collection of forum posts not a moon rocket. Keep it simple to read, contribute and moderate.
I like Demonpants’ option. It should work perfectly well without placing excessive demands on anyone or being to convoluted.
I do a review roundup for Indiegamemag.com every 2 months (I used to do it for GameTunnel but the new owner axed the format). I devised a very simple scoring system which works well with a panel of multiple reviewers, so we all use it, and it goes something like this:
+1 point if the game installs and uninstalls correctly
+1 point if the game doesn’t crash ever
+1 point if the game is slickly presented
+1 point if the game has “good” graphics that suit the game
+1 point if the game has “good” sound that suit the game
+1 point if the game’s overall style is “good”
+1 point if the game is original or brings a great new original twist
+1 point if I enjoyed playing it
+1 point if I played the game even though I didn’t have to (important factor when being a reviewer)
+1 point if I actually bought the game for myself or someone else (and a twist here, as a nod to the amateur nature of the forum here - +1 point instead, if the game is simply free to play)
About half of those points simply can’t be argued with: it either installs and uninstalls properly on my machine or it doesn’t; it either crashes or it doesn’t; I either enjoyed playing it or I didn’t; I played it when I didn’t have to play it or I didn’t; and I actually buy some of the games I review. The other 5 are more or less subjective, which is why a panel of reviewers works best. Some people are more critical than others (I’m especially scathing). There’s no excuse for not getting less than 2 points though, yet some offerings actually manage it. Typically such games come as a zip file (FAIL) and then crash immediately (FAIL). I’ve yet to have a zero scored game to review but I reckon one’s waiting in the wings for me.
It is entirely possible for a fairly simple but complete if unoriginal game to score 8 points. Make a breakout game with a proper menu, appropriately nice graphics and sound and a coherent style, and you’ve got yourself a complete game. My First Arkanoid Clone however, with its programmer art and probably completely missing sound, and a menu rendered using AWT fonts that doesn’t respond to mouse clicks, is going to get 4 points if it’s lucky.
So if anyone’s worried about criteria for being put in the showcase - maybe that scoring system would be something of a start towards whether you think your game should be submitted or not. Julien, I invite you to score TUER on that scale. And anyone else, score your own games, and really think critically about the scores you’re awarding. Is your programmer art actually really any good? Would you really pay for the game you just wrote? Etc.
Cas
Yay! I just scored a ten!
;D