Before is even start I would like a commitment from the moderators.
Everybody is free to express their mind. There’s no judgement of arguments from the moderators.
Arguments are arguments of equals. Moderators have no special standing.
No one can be expelled for having a view. Moderators cannot stop a discussion just because it’s aginst the view of Sun.
Without the above a discussion is meaningless. I would like to see a comment from the moderators.
[quote=“uj1,post:1,topic:26287”]
This is a forgone conclusion.
I don’t think so. But if you think so you’re wellcome to start.
uj, I think I understand your frustration, but there really is no point arguing Java vs. C++ on these boards. This is a Java games development board, so the only question is - Is Java good enough for developing games, and the answer is resounding yes. We know this from experience. I am developing with it (see my sig) and many already have completed games that are competing along side C++ games (and other languages). You may or may not wish to use Java to program a game, that’s your porogitive, but we have and are. We know what it’s capable of and we know it’s limits and we know it’s good enough for what we are doing. You can choose to accept that or not, the decision is yours.
And regardless of the topic it is generally considered very bad etiquette to start a new thread on a subject after the moderators of a board lock the previous one down…
Cas 
Sure, you are convinced Java is the ultimate answer to gaming, but the question was why don’t everybody think so?
And, to be more general, why hasn’t Java been the language of choise for advanced desktop applications?
I don’t know why - perhaps it’s better to ask them then us.
It has been in some cases, and not in others. Again though, It seems more logical to ask people that didn’t choose Java over those who did. The rest of us would just be theorizing anyway.
I did and the answer is that Java just didn’t cut it at the time.
That’s my main point really. Java hasn’t been good enougth at every particular moment. Why is Eclipse using SWT for example and not Swing? I cannot be absolutely sure but a very good guess is that Swing wasn’t a good enougth alternative at the moment.
I’m replying to any argument. When asked I also back up every proposition I’ve made. When told I’m a troll and a moron I revert to irony and redicule. That’s what happened in the other thread. I challange you to point out when I attacked anyone unless being provoked before.
So to Jeff and the moderators and everybody else who say I’m wrong, prove it. Show a specific situation where I’ve done wrong. I’m not Magdalena. I sometimes harbour bad feelings but I never let them out unless provoked.
And finally I have a right to be wrong (or right). It’s an important aspect of democracy that there isn’t some god figure who decides whether an opinion is “good enougth to fit in”. That’s dictatorship and by closing down the other thread without reason you’re very close to overstepping that thin line.
Well, I can take almost anything but when people start taking away the freedom of speech I get kind of pissed.
Sorry, but the ‘freedom of speech’ argument doesn’t apply. This is a moderated message board and the moderators do so as they see fit. When you first register there’s a little checkbox at the bottom of the forum guidelines which reads “I Agree”. You had to check that to register. One of the items you agreed to is that the moderators are free to remove content at their discretion (or something to that effect). It’s actually very rare for a thread to get locked here. The other thread wasn’t closed because your views were opposite of everyone else’s. It broke down into mudslinging, so closing it was the appropriate thing to do. But this really, really, is the wrong place to discuss Java vs. C++. I don’t know what you are trying to accomplish by doing so.
this is java gaming technical forum where you can get or give help for java game related problems also a great learning resource, its not a battlefield to fight old flame war topics, theres plenty of other places where you can go do that (cough* slashdot *cough), sure you can have the a good technical discussion but when it starts getting mindless and heated its time to stop. its anoying to see a nice useful information resource being littered and trashed, as for freedom of expression you should understand it comes with responsibilites.
as for the old java vs c++ debate yawn its pointless, leads nowhere and ends with ill feelings. So please be a good sport and just drop it.
uj doesn’t want to hear any arguments… given that they have already been presented and ignored in the other thread. Ban this person so we don’t have to put up with this nonsense.
This is silly. The “language vs language” argument exists in virtually every programming forum I’ve ever seen. It’s pointless because there is NO definative finalization of the basic tenents of the argument. Use what YOU want, for whatever reason YOU want. There are no clear cut winners or losers, every language has it’s strengths and faults. It’s a subject that has been beaten to death ad nauseum. :
[quote]And finally I have a right to be wrong (or right). It’s an important aspect of democracy that there isn’t some god figure who decides whether an opinion is “good enougth to fit in”. That’s dictatorship and by closing down the other thread without reason you’re very close to overstepping that thin line.
Well, I can take almost anything but when people start taking away the freedom of speech I get kind of pissed.
[/quote]
Yes, you absolutely have the right to be wrong (or right) and you are welcome to shout your position at the top of your lungs on any street corner. In fact, you are welcome to join any publicly open forum, assuming that you abide by their T&C, and state your position. However, you started into a discussion thread (22 posts in) saying that people were whining, stating that Java has been crappy for 10 years, then (of course) validating that perhaps that Java being slow no longer holds true and pointing out that it now has OGL support and suitable for games. Point there is, if it’s good enough now, what’s your beef? You were argumentative almost from the start.
You then went on to get the whole Java3D thing wrong WRT to letting the users down and going to JOGL. You then asked:
[quote]C++ is a modern language. There’s no special need to move to Java or C#. What would that be?
[/quote]
Now, I will point out that many answers were given to your question, but none seemed to satisfy you. Fair enough. However, your general insulting just continued. Witness your next post in the thread:
[quote]So you just cave in without discussion? Well then you must be stupid and you posted a view worth nothing. Did you post for fame or something?
[/quote]
Hmmm…KevGlass didn’t attack you, as far as I could see in the thread, so why call him stupid and tell him he is caving in? If you weren’t here to pick a fight, then why use those words? And, BTW, THAT is where the downward spiral started in that discussion. I read through each of your posts in that thread and you were more argumentative and insulting than anyone else in there and when you were presented with answers and reasons to your comments or questions, you either dismissed them or ignored them.
Now, anyone that has been frequenting these boards for some time will tell you that I am, above all else, fair. I rarely lock threads and I believe that we have banned only 1 or 2 subscribers since these boards went live. However, I am perfectly willing to eject someone who comes here to do nothing more than pick fights or “play devil’s advocate” when no one asked them to and for no reason other than to assert themselves. You have made some arguments in favor of C++ over Java. I have absolutely no problem with that. But I do have one request.
Please inform the rest of us what your credentials are. What games have you developed? Which ones in C++ and which ones in Java? If no games, than what kind of apps have you developed? Can anyone witness your work? Give us something so that we can respect your opinion and position. You talk about Java’s lack of credibility, in your opinion, and why should anyone just trust it, now that it is suitable for game development, overnight? Well, why should anyone trust anything you have to say just because you waltzed in here and said it? And we don’t even know your history.
So, tell us why we should listen. I’m open.
-Chris
i’m pretty amazed uj started out this thread with demands towards the moderators and accusing them of only locking threads that are against Sun … as if that’s going to encourage us to debate fairly?
i would like to point out that this is probably the same ‘uj’ from the Sun forums (who has been banned many times and had to change his name to “u.j.” and “u…j” and “u.j…” etc)… but i could be wrong
language vs language is a pointless debate anyway which has been overdiscussed many times. as it is said with many popular topics - “use the search feature!”
how can you seriously compare 2 different languages if their purpose for creation is different…? Java’s purpose was to ‘write once, run everywhere’
btw, it’s kinda funny to hear you call C++ a “modern” language seeing as java is newer and updated more frequently.
if you’re looking for a language vs language topic, why not C vs C++? 
True. Moderation equals dicatorship. If you dont like how the mods handle it, go away.
Its as simple as that.
This trolling has already been locked once.
I think its probably account ban time…
I am actually interested too to find out what programs/games uj developed? uj?
I don’t care
If we wanted to discuss something far more useful in here we’d be talking about Java versus BlitzMax.
Cas