It is a good idea but I really disapprove this fork. If Christoph wants to create his own website, I prefer him to use JGT and I only see the coexistence of 2 different websites as a waste of time and energy.
This has to change. Java: Write Once Run Anywhere. I don’t want to promote any non cross-platform games, maybe they could be put into the incubator if the author engages to improve his project. I want the users to expect Java games on JGT from working almost whatever their OS.
In regards to the programs not being crossplatform (well at least the 3 main ones). Why not just put the titles under its own section, like [advanced] or [conditional]
With a basic description under the title “Warning games under this section may not work on your operating system check games conditions…” or something of the like. this would work as a deterant for users to go to the section, as well as developers who want greater exposure.
anyway keep up the good work gouessej.
As I said before, there is no reason there cannot be two or more game sites for Java. There are several Flash sites out there, but when it comes to Java, it’s pretty much 0! I encourage you to still do your own…
The incubator can already be used for this kind of games if the authors plan to drive their games really cross-platform.
Thank you very much. Don’t worry. I hope that this “waste” won’t discourage me to work on TUER…
It is useless for me to invest any time in such a website if you really want to create your own website with a principle close to mine. I’m waiting for the end of this debate. If no other solution is found, I will leave the project and kingaschi, please use the same domain name to avoid wasting the “noise” I made around this.
I didn’t begin this project to compete with anyone but rather to collaborate with as much people as possible. If kingaschi goes on, it is better for me to use my energy and my time for a precise original project with NO competitor and some investors that could be useful for a lot of authors. I don’t defend only my personal interest. We need to be united to increase the credibility of Java gaming.
Both java game websites can co-exist (I post java game reviews on my site, does that mean I shouldn’t?), but if the original project doesn’t continue thats a real shame, especially given the effort thats evidently been put in.
I’m a bit worried about gouessej though, he sounds really stressed about this. Infact he’s sounded more and more stressed since the JGT started development. It’s not good for your health. Maybe it would be better to take a break and focus on the other endeavors.
Kev
Ouch.
That’ll be misinterpreted.
[quote=“gouessej,post:8,topic:32102”]
Yes, you do!
Kevglass is right - you’re stressed out. Have a holiday mon brave! Get some perspective…
Lol. I’m going to think about this.
I really wanted to take advantage of the fact that we were several people to work on the same project and even though 2 websites like JGT “could” coexist, what is the interest? Is it necessary if the principle of the both websites is very close? It is better to save my energy in order to put it into something else or into … holidays ;D lol.
The whole reason why there is a fork is because there is some sort of dissagreement in terms of direction right? (…and I’ll take a wild guess and assume that it has something to do with linux support (or the lack of))
If the other guy wants to do his own web-page then so be it. I don’t think the results of a poll will do much to stop them if they’re determined.
ps: imo, variety is always good.
I really don’t want to take sides and jump into the middle of this - it is a big decision to fork a non-trivial project, no doubt. But I think to some extent I agree with that statement, and I think there is a good argument to be made for multiplicity of sites. In fact, I’d go as far as to say that it might be better for the Java gaming community overall if there are more sites, especially if they share traffic and push it back and forth - my brother used to run a few niche Java gaming sites (now mostly defunct), and out of curiosity he did a little experiment (he wanted to see if traffic cannibalization was an issue) and found that literally cut+pasting his site to another domain name and changing the style sheet, along with getting a few external links and a bunch of links “to himself” actually significantly increased traffic to both sites, despite having more or less the same content. Any cannibalization of traffic is more than made up for by the overall increase in exposure, which has some distinctly non-linear elements (if people play more Java games, they are more apt to look for them, and oftentimes they will click through networks of similar gaming sites rather than moving outside the network; even if the content is closely related between two sites, the layout/organization/different sorting methods may highlight different games, so there is still some reason to go to both).
I’m not suggesting spamming the web with Java game sites by any means, but I would say there is more than enough room for two sites; I’d dare say that for Java games to really take off, we’d need a LOT more than that, even. Make no mistake, part of the reason Kongregate, Newgrounds et al survive is the fact that people see Flash games everywhere, and thus are inclined to seek them out, including on a lot of sites that are not as huge. But without that long tail, the big boys in that field might not be as successful as they are (and vice versa, of course).
gouessej/kingaschi, I would really love to see a mutually beneficial arrangement come out of this - I think if a contributor really feels the need to fork, to some extent it’s a sign of a project’s success, as it means there’s enough work already done that they want to start moving in a new direction without either starting from scratch or forcing the original project there as well. It’s only a real negative when you’re talking about APIs that developers need to use or something like that, because you can end up with incompatibilities; that’s not an issue here. But I’d much prefer to see this resolved on good terms with you guys supporting each other’s efforts rather than stopping work on one of them, since if you look at this the right way, it really could mean good things for all involved. Web traffic is most definitely not a zero-sum game, and if you are both actively seeking incoming links and then sharing some of the traffic, it will be good for all of us.
Would you guys maybe be willing to do a link exchange if this fork happens?
It’s definitely your decision, ultimately; however, I think I’ve offered a couple reasons why it might be good for multiple websites to coexist. I would definitely suggest trying to differentiate in some way, accentuating the different focuses of the websites, though as I said before, even a cut and paste can end up netting more traffic to both sites…anyways, at least think about it for a bit before deciding what to do.
Thank you for your contribution and your suggestions. You’re right, you gave some excellent arguments. However, it is a matter of time on my side, I have already some other important projects that have required a lot of time and it is impossible for me to work alone on such a website. kapta suggested to look for help, it is a good idea… But what is really more useful for the authors and for our community? Is it better for us that I put my energy into a second JGT or into The Foundation? Is it better for us that I put my energy into a “clone” of JGT or into something completely different with stricter rules (with contracts to avoid what happened with kingaschi…)?
I see that the Tome is now down, I’m a bit sad, I may be forced to create a temporary Tome if the authors demand it.
Don’t use Java’s cross-platformness to tell what Java game developers should or should not do with Java.
Java doesn’t work on X-Box nor Playstation nor Wii, so hows that for cross-platform? Whenever cross-platformness is enforced, the only thing that’s get enforced is that the game should run on: Apple Mac. I see 3 kind of possible rules: only pure Java games (strict), games that use Java language (relaxed), or only cross-platform Java games that work on the Mac (biased).
The thing is, if something isn’t working on some of the platforms, there are surely some technical issues. Lets face it, if you want to use all the possibilities to make your game better, you will sooner or later come to some issues with cross-platformness. It doesn’t even have to be the OS platform, its enough to think of all the GPU specifics and OpenGL support. Java does not make those cross platform, so by these rules, its OK to make a game that runs on nVidia but does not run on ATI, but its not OK to make a game that does not run on Mac?
Sticking to cross-platformness is crippling Java games, that’s why C# made success. Instead of limiting what can be done, it would be better if Sun made improvements so that Java games need to use native libraries less, and lessen the burden of making Java games cross-platform.
I don’t tell anyone not to use Java but it is already possible to create cross-platform games with it. I don’t see what you mean about Mac and I tried to explain clearly what we expected about “cross-platformness” and the operating systems. It is possible to detect which extensions are available in OpenGL, I don’t see what you mean. I asked some friends to help me to test games on several graphics cards when I know some of them use hardware acceleration, I should have said it earlier and I should have written it in the terms of use.
“Write Once, Run Anywhere” is Java’s famous slogan. I’m not interested in C# and I’m not Sun, it is not my fault. I’ve chosen Java to make cross-platform games, it is not impossible to reach this objective and if you prefer C#, nobody prevents you from using it.
I know Java works bad and even not at all on some game machines but JavaGameTome is only for PC games. Java works on PS3 as far as I know even though you can’t use hardware acceleration. Some people used Eclipse on it.
I completely appreciate the spirit of the JGT, but I have to say that cross platform piece is but one of many reasons that developers should use Java. Forcing the developer into making their games completely cross platform between the 3 major OS’s just to make the point is, I believe, too restrictive. WORA holds true in all included APIs/install of the core JRE, but the minute you start adding 3rd party APIs, that breaks down. I could say that if you wanted to make a true WORA site, then you have to make sure that the game runs anywhere a comparable JRE can be installed. There are significant issues between different builds of Linux, which ones are defined?
I think it’s more disappointing that a compromise could not be struck. But, to your suggestion in an earlier post about holding people to a project through contracts and making it stricter means that you would get an extremely small subset of submissions. I don’t understand why the rules could not be loosened to allow all games that use Java at all to be included and you just highlight the ones that were cross platform and hold them up as the “gold standard” of the site. At any rate, I am just glad that there is continued interest in 3rd party Java game sites and can’t wait to see the relaunch.
…seeing as all the native APIs out there that are actually used to write, erm, nonstandard games as it were, are all available for the 3 main desktop platorms anyway… what’s the issue? If a game doesn’t run on a particular system, it’s a bug, not a philosophical conundrum.
Cas 
There’s no point in taking the cross-platform aspect of Java before everything else, it only means ONE additional platform. When you “incubate” a game because it is not “cross-platform”, you degrade it because it does not work on the Mac. If there were lots of equally used platforms, then it would make sense to enforce cross-platformness.
To detect extensions is just the minimum, there are differences in cards that may require to use different algorithms, different shaders, makes your program more complex. My point was that making the game optimally work on different cards may be more important, than making the game work on all Java platforms.
I like Java, I want to use Java. I don’t care about Mac, because most gamers have Windows and not Mac. I don’t want to cripple the game in any way because of cross-platform support. Games not made cross-platform are not necessarily badly written, they may be written to better use a specific platform.
As someone suggested, let there be possibility to filter games on supported platform, and all is solved. Don’t mark them as “incubated” or “incomplete”, because that suggests that a crap cross-platform game is worth more that a good single-platform one.
Is the site for all PC Java games, or only for “nicely coded Java games”?
You’d care if they wrote to you and moaned to you.
Cas
This.
It seems to me that this would be the easiest solution for everyone based on everything I have read here.
I personally think cross platform development should be encouraged as it applies to a broader audience, but I don’t think it should be enforced. Games are like plants, let them grow before pruning.
I don’t want to encourage platform-dependent game programming. The support of the 3 main families of operating system is something fair on my view.
As I said, the incubator has been made for games that are not yet cross-platform… But don’t worry, it is no more my problem, kingaschi agrees with you all.
Sorry, I should have been more precise. It is for another project that has nothing to do with the JGT. I only think that I don’t want people to say “OK let’s do it” and 2 months later “No I disagreed with the rules… Please let me work on my own project”.