Java Game Console

Game Play & Game Design
#21

[quote]Production hardware would replace the FPGA with an ASIC, and would cost about 1/5 of those prices due to quantity discounts…

A program called a “logic analyzer” goes through the pain of actually producing the physical layout of the chip.
[/quote]
A couple of nitpicks.

  1. Getting someone to fab an ASIC usually costs a ton of money - and up front. The price of the ASIC only becomes reasonable in very large quantities, for example, 1 million.

  2. You use a logic analyzer to debug your FPGA designs, not to place and route. You use a synthesizer for going from VHDL/Verilog to realization.

God bless,
-Toby Reyelts

#22

Another nitpick: one cannot have failed to notice that even 8yr old kids these days have phones that play 2D (hell, and even 3D!) Java games on them. Who needs a console when you’ve got a phone that does it? And just think about the next-gen game phones around the corner with hardware 3D acceleration :confused:

Cas :slight_smile:

#23

The wiki site has the width at 130 cm :slight_smile:

#24

[quote]1) Getting someone to fab an ASIC usually costs a ton of money - and up front.
[/quote]
Yeah, I realize that. My thought is to go for the ASICs after we get the design done and finalized. If it’s not feasible, then we’ll have to look at how cheap we can possibly get the FPGAs. (According to the Digikey catalog I have here, the later is doable but pretty tight.)

[quote]The price of the ASIC only becomes reasonable in very large quantities, for example, 1 million.
[/quote]
Are you sure that’s right? The various research I’ve done tends to suggest that 100K-250K is the point at which these chips get fairly reasonable. Granted, a run of 1 million+ chips is going to make the processor extremely cheap.

[quote]2) You use a logic analyzer to debug your FPGA designs, not to place and route. You use a synthesizer for going from VHDL/Verilog to realization.
[/quote]
Thanks for the correction. A lot of information seems to use the two interchangably, so it’s good to have it properly defined. I’ve updated the wiki to match. :slight_smile:

#25

[quote]The wiki site has the width at 130 cm :slight_smile:
[/quote]
/me quickly pulls up the wiki and corrects the error

Does not. :wink:

(Thanks for catching that, BTW. :))

#26

heh :slight_smile:

#27

[quote]Another nitpick: one cannot have failed to notice that even 8yr old kids these days have phones that play 2D (hell, and even 3D!) Java games on them.
[/quote]
This is quite true. (Although with the exception of the N-Gage, I’ve never seen a 3D game on a phone.) I was considering the issue, but I don’t think its much of a deal breaker here in the states. Camera phones are much more popular with the masses than J2ME phones (I still don’t have either), and not that many 8yr olds have cell phones yet.

That is changing, but there is still a significant window in which to push a console like this. (Witness my favorite justification: JAKKS TV Games) In addition, cell phone games tend to be far less of an impulse buy. (Very few americans subscribe to WAP services, so they can only get their games through the Internet.) Game cards at the checkout counter fit into that “impulse buy” category that’s currently lacking in the phone designs.

[quote]Who needs a console when you’ve got a phone that does it? And just think about the next-gen game phones around the corner with hardware 3D acceleration :confused:
[/quote]
I wouldn’t hold your breath on phone 3D hardware. The N-Gage has “3D”, but there’s no actual 3D hardware. Pretty much all the games are highly advanced Ray Casters or very simple 3D engines from the 486 days (e.g. Tomb Raider).

#28

@Toby:

It looks like the information I have is a fairly recent development. Here’s an article on it:

http://www.eedesign.com/news/showArticle.jhtml?articleId=16501114&kc=4217

In typical manufacturer fashion, the actual prices aren’t listed. But if we’re talking $1,000,000 for 100,000 chips, then the per chip cost would be ~$10. Thats still quite a bit better than a comparably complex FPGA. :slight_smile:

#29

http://www.xgamestation.com
<— seems to fit the bill… $199, a little overpriced I think but in terms of Xmas presents, not too bad at all. About the price of a reasonable bike.

Cas :slight_smile:

#30

Very nice, Cas. :slight_smile:

But not quite as cheap as one of these. ;D

Although I will grant you that the XGameStation is an “all-in-one” kit. You’re just paying a bit more for that convience.

#31

[quote]Another nitpick: one cannot have failed to notice that even 8yr old kids these days have phones that play 2D (hell, and even 3D!) Java games on them. Who needs a console when you’ve got a phone that does it? And just think about the next-gen game phones around the corner with hardware 3D acceleration :confused:

Cas :slight_smile:
[/quote]
Because playing a game on cell phone sucks. The controls can be unresponsive and the screen is small. With this console idea, you use your tv(?) and can go to 640x480 or whatever the target is.

#32

Got a PS2/GC for that sort of entertainment though…

Cas :slight_smile:

#33

[quote]Got a PS2/GC for that sort of entertainment though…

Cas :slight_smile:
[/quote]
For $170 plus $40-$60 per game. :slight_smile:

I think this idea has a good intermediate market. Even if the price of some games go as high as $20.

#34

Looks like someone is looking out for you, Cas:

http://icculus.org/manticore/

Unfortunately, Manticore is nowhere near ready to use. But it might be an option for a second gen device.

Also:

NVidia just unveiled this. I’m not sure, but I think that the GoForce 4500 3D is the first actual 3D chip targeted at mobile phones. Pricing is currently unclear, as is the question of whether the GoForce could power a console.

Of course, none of this hardware is making it into the first gen console (I’m having a hard enough time cramming everything into $50), but it is something to keep an eye on. :slight_smile:

#35

When you say 50$ I think you mean the shelf price. That means with only 20% going to the retailer, you need to make the unit for 40$.

#36

[quote]When you say 50$ I think you mean the shelf price. That means with only 20% going to the retailer, you need to make the unit for 40$.
[/quote]
Correct. And that’s assuming we break even. If the consoles are sold at a profit, then the hardware must be even cheaper per unit. That’s what what makes this such a challenge.

#37

Hm, you can barely get a nice bit of Lego these days for that sort of money… are you sure you’re not being a tad unrealistic on the price of “toys” these days? I mean, this ain’t no cuddly stuffed bunny or anything, it’s a complex electric wotsit…

Cas :slight_smile:

#38

I just bought the boardgame HeroScape a few days ago for $50.
Lots of nice plastic bits for designing other games with, if the game stinks. :slight_smile:

http://www.hasbro.com/heroscape/

#39

[quote]Hm, you can barely get a nice bit of Lego these days for that sort of money… are you sure you’re not being a tad unrealistic on the price of “toys” these days? I mean, this ain’t no cuddly stuffed bunny or anything, it’s a complex electric wotsit…
[/quote]
Thankfully, electronic wotsits are pretty cheap. Here’s a list of potential parts from Digikey:

Smart Card Connector $0.91 - $2.47

USB Connector $0.95

FPGA $11.55

Those are just example parts. Some parts I have to make educated guesses about (e.g. SDRAM can be purchased on the consumer market for ~$4 for 32MB). Other parts we’ll try to keep on the FPGA or ASIC. The more we can pack on the FPGA, the cheaper this thing should be. PCBs can also be manufactured dirt cheap (about $2.90 in 1000+ quantities).

In short, the $50 price range should be quite doable. The R&D to make these parts work together along with business deals to get cheaper parts (e.g. large quantities of FPGAs) is what’s going to be difficult. FWIW, I’m working on both areas. I’ve already gotten licensing concessions for JOP, and I’ve started poking around with the VHDL in ISE Webpack. :slight_smile:

#40

Heh, its the ‘internet zeitgeist’ or something. I just recently discovered the hardware side computing via vhdl and fpga’s as well.

Cas linked to xgame station; a couple of things are notable about that product. 1) it has a 16bit cpu 2) its primarily aimed at hobbiest and students and 3) the community around it exploded as soon as it was announced. They had an emulator and a port of the ‘c for small devices’ to it 6 months or more before the actual hardware was available. Nehe even coded some demos for it iirc. 4) Its early 80’s level tech.

I think this toy concept of yours is interesting. Have you considered the education market? ie ‘Learn to program and make games in java on this nifty console!’

Oh, and here is a Dreamcast on a chip.