Java 3D on Sony Playstation 2

Engines, Libraries and Tools Java 3D
#21

Several Things,

[quote]And a port of Java that runs like Java 1.0 on a 100Mhz Pentium is probably going to set Sun back years in credibility and Sony too. They will almost certainly determine that it is useless and bury it.
[/quote]
If Sun doesn’t build the JVM for PS2 (not PS/2 - that is a perif. port which succesed the AT port), then their reputation will be held. However decides on doing it - 3rd party or big company will but their rep on the line. If its some new 3rd party, then it just might be worth it since nobody knows them anyways.

[quote]it won’t happen on a console because there’s no keyboard!
[/quote]
This is wrong!!! There are 2 USB ports on the PS2. In fact, EverQuest for the PS2 uses the keyboard if you have it (as well as some other games). Is it unherd of to make a game for a console that only uses the Keyboard? Nope, Typing of the Dead for DreamCast was a really really good game that got high reviews and only used the keyboard. (It was ported over to the PC too).

[quote] Now as for Java on the PS/2: if it can run on a Nokia I’m pretty sure it can run on a PS/2 but if by “run” you mean “be a serious contender to release the platform’s potential” instead of “execute pathetic Tetris clones at 5fps after interminable download on Sony’s brilliant new SonyNet idea, cor it’s just like the Internet except you have to pay Sony*” then yes, you might as well assume I’m right Fiver was it?
[/quote]
What Java “game” is a serious contender in the PC releam? I don’t know of any that you can go to the store purchase. The big java games happen to be small little apps you play online (and gambling games too). You could certaintly release these small games in a bundle if you really wanted too. I bet people would buy it. Or you could use the eithernet adaptor to connect to a server and pay some monthly fee to play games and win prizes.

The point is, keep an open mind on these things. Yes there are hurdles - there always are. Writting a JVM for PS2, GBA, GameCube, XBox, ect, ect ,ect are all possible. The more JVM’s there are avaible, the more wide spread Java becomes.

#22

[quote]I’ve got to say Jase that I’m all huff and puff really and it’s basically just my opinions!
[/quote]
Which is exactly why I enjoy arguing with you about them. :stuck_out_tongue:

[quote]WRT the controller, it’s about the coding to the available interfaces and the requirements for the style of game.
[/quote]
Again, I would argue that other games (non-Java) are contending with this issue already.

[quote]The games that port lend themselves to low resolutions because they’re 3D and things of interest tend to loom large in the field of view.
[/quote]
I think we’re pretty much talking around each other here. My argument, at this point, is that assuming we had a full Java 1.4 on the PS2 (ignoring issues such as memory, etc) along with some sort of 3D toolkit (Java3D, or your own lightweight library, for example), then Java -could- be a serious contender, especially when you take into account the screen resolution.

However, personally I think that due to the constraints of the console, it’s highly unlikely we’d see a -performant- Java VM on PS2 (I’m quite prepared to be proved wrong) – so I’d be willing to settle for natively (yerk) compiled Java. ;D (ie. Java the language, rather than Java the platform).

[quote]And most of those console owners have never used a proper old fashioned Atari joystick so they don’t know what they’re missing :slight_smile: Kids these days eh?
[/quote]
I have, and I never liked it. And if we’re demonstrating age, I was playing games on a TRS-80 (Deathmaze 2000. 3D in 4mm-line vectored splendor).

By the way, I find it interesting that Sony demoed Java running on the PS2 (a PersonalJava applet, I think it was), said something would be out by the end of 2001 (or was it 2?), and then everything went quiet. Very little has been said about it since then. PS3… maybe… hopefully… :-/

#23

Well, yeah, I think this says it all to me :slight_smile:

Cas :slight_smile:

#24

The closest thing to Java on PS2 that I’ve heard about is some guys who have compiled Kaffe on the PS2 Linux kit.

http://playstation2-linux.com/forum/message.php?msg_id=13682

#25

Y’see, all of this Java-on-PS/2 stuff is just nerd pr0n at the end of the day… the PS/2 is a consumer device and there will be no forgiveness if it’s not as good as or better than what they’ve already got… so it’s not like people are going to flock in droves to get Java for PS/2 because it’ll just simply be useless to them. Without the performance to write proper software in Java, PS/2 developers will largely ignore it, and without genuinely useful software with consumer demand, customers won’t need to bother with Java.

Anyway, nuff said on the whole matter, as it’s all just a big load of vapour…

Cas :slight_smile:

#26

PS/2 is the specification for a port. Its name is derived by the IBM PS/2 model because it was the first model to
implement the spec. Previous models used the AT spec.

So stop confusing PS/2 for PS2

#27

I couldn’t disagree more about the jvm on ps2 point. Look at the big games this christmas- they are being released across platforms wherever possible. Splinter Cell being a good example- simultaneously released on PS2, PC, GC and Xbox- if you had a JVM for each of those consoles you could write the whole lot once and release it with only the minimum control remapping between different platforms. In the vast majority of cases I believe development companies would sacrifice a bit of cutting-edgeness to be able to do this. If the jvms were well designed and optimised they wouldn’t even need to sacrifice much at all.

The future of games is more about content and less about development environment anyway, I reckon- if you can do the lot with one development environment then so much the better.

#28

I couldn’t disagree more Breakfast :slight_smile: The future of games as I see it is- Why by hardware platform X instead of hardware platform Y? Specifically in the console market. What makes PS2 (there you go Conzar ;D) better than XBox? And so of course you’ll get games that use some feature of one platform or other to be their defining characteristic. This may largely be why so many games are just eye-candy and no gameplay these days. But it’s still the way the market’s been heading for the last few years, and it’s the way Sony-san is pushing it, deliberately.

Cas :slight_smile:

#29

The ‘exclusive games only on platform X’ business model is broken. Microsoft tried to do it by buying games companyies to only make games for xbox, and the revenue from that division is sucking wind. Sega Dream Cast tried to do that too, and look where the Dreamcast console is now…They came to their senses and now Sega makes games for multiple platforms (and they are a more healthy company for it). The exclusive platform development you are describing, Cas, benefits no one but the console makers. I don’t plan on becomming a console maker (and therefore benefit from single-platform game development), I’d like to become a games developer, and being able to deploy games across multiple platforms with little effort means I make more money. The JVM gives the perfect abstraction layer to take advantage of the hardware available on the specific console, while still working within a standard API. This may be a pipe dream, but it’s worked in my business software so far (although game software is a completely different beast with more dependencies on the hardware, but I still feel it can be done).

-Chris

#30

What makes PS2 (there you go Conzar ) better than XBox?

Name brand.

Good marketing.

LOTS of games.

Backwards compatibility.

That’s why the PS2 is immensely more popular than XBOX. When it all comes down, most of the reasons are not even that technical. Users couldn’t care what runs inside their console, wheter it’s a “massively parallel” grpahics engine or just a regular PC architecture inside their box.

Why is it more popular than PC gaming? Well controllers, easy to use, no compatibility and upgrade nightmares, sitting in front of the TV, etc.

What’s really “developer p0rn” is the kind of flame wars that I used to read about who could push more polygons.

#31

I like the way Breakfast thinks. I didn’t want to mention the irony of the forum vs cgi though 8) .

The one topic I have not seen discussed yet is the onset of Virtual Reality and Java3D strengths.

At the point the interface becomes reality(affordable with some quality) it will be an entrirely new experience to gamers.

Remember what each person is seeking, an immersive experience. Who likes playing on a 14" CRT TV? Not me
.

I would trade Java3d graphics for an immersive environment any day of the week. What will make java a major player is the ease of bringing new information into those new worlds.

The market will soon be driven by gameplay/functionality not graphics. Does anyone remember playing an RPG as a kid and having memorable fun even if it was 16 bit graphics? I do.

If VR hits primetime, Java3D would be able to adapt and change the user view accordingly with minimal effort.

Java really does have a headstart, and by the time the graphics processing catches up it will already be definitive.

fed007

#32

Augusto hit it right on the head. You can marvel at pretty graphics for only so long before you realize that what you are playing is mindless. This is not to understate the importance of a good looking game, but I would say that you can have a dated looking game with great gameplay that would be more long-lived than a great looking game with medicore gameplay (case in piont: starcraft: a tile based game with pretty dated graphics, but I can still sit down and enjoy it hour after hour). The starcarft graphics are ‘good enough’ but the gameplay is outstanding.

This is my exact opinion of Java: the speed is good enough, and because it’s easier to develop in i can spend more time making the gameplay more enjoyable and less time fixing bugs.

-Chris

#33

Ahhh, where were all you Java guys earlier…

Nice to see some high level thought about the abstractions gained from the API…

This is where all the power is all derived from. They (Sony and MS) do not want to make 3D programming easy. It lowers the developers barrier to entry. (This is a backwards philosophy if you ask me… X-Box could make java its bitch by deploying full API support)

It is NOW conceivable for a SINGLE developer to build games like Empire Earth/Command & Conquer within ONE year with multiplayer capability. With this kind of power it is no wonder they don’t wan’t to support FULL Java on their devices.

The object architectures will define the logical abstractions and right now Java makes that all important cut to the hardware layer - There was a reason for Sun to do this…

The catch up game for others has already begun…

On another note I can’t post this message because = " Resources Exceeded
Sorry, System load is too high to process CGI requests.

Please try again later.
"

hmmm may be time to use Java!

fed007

#34

[quote] The ‘exclusive games only on platform X’ business model is broken
[/quote]
To show this, i have an amusing example. In France (maybe other countries as well), for Xmas, XBOX is sold with Sega GT2002. Now, Sega helps Microsoft selling consoles.
Quite weird, isn’t it?

#35 
I work for Sony now :) Trust me, you won't see Java on PS2.

Cas :)

Cas, cas, cas…:slight_smile:

Great to hear that you are working for Sony! However…

Never on PlayStation???

Ok, so we have a Java build on PS2. Shown at JavaOne, demo apps running. Where is it? Well, let’s just say that somtimes getting a simple build out to the public is not necessarily so simple.

And, you should know this, Sony is VERY committed to Java. Don’t be suprised if it does show up on a PS platform…:slight_smile:

-Chris

#36

money->where mouth is

[quote]jerome_blouin
Thursday, May 02, 2002 - 08:44 am

What happens about the the Java3D gran prix demo download?

Chris or Jeff?
[/quote]

[quote]jeff
Thursday, May 02, 2002 - 03:52 pm

The answer is a trifle complex but I’m working on it.

I did the work to run it out of a few Jar files and some DLLs. I’m playing with Installers right now and trying to fidn one whcih will do what we need that Sun has already licensed. My fallback which I may start working on is Java Web Start enabling it.

There are some other clean-up things that should really be done to it though before we release it or you’ll end up downloading a whole lot of useless crap along with what you need to play the game.
[/quote]
Perhaps the PS2 question is also triflingly complex? From what I’ve seen Sun people make lots of committments but few deliveries.

#37

Going back to my previous point about one engine on several platforms, this is from an article about Enter The Matrix in this month’s PC Zone:

Not only is this what games companies want, it is what they are making and it is what Java was designed for- what it could and should be providing.

#38

As Chris hints, Sony are definitely committed to Java on PS… but not PS2! Patience, all will be revealed etc. but don’t go worrying about PS2 because it ain’t gonna happen.

Cas :slight_smile:

#39

Heh… just make sure that LWJGL will be able to run on whatever they come up with ;D

#40

Thank kinda depends on OpenGL and OpenAL becoming the standard games API on the 'station.

Which would be nice. ;D

Cas :slight_smile: