J4K

General Discussions
#241

The parameters / properties: I’m just pointing out they exist, no more than that. We can see that they are not passing extra information to the application, which is what the post aimed to do.

The “Failed” only means the judges should check that they are using the downloadable jar, not the web start version, as they are different (the class & data files). My (limited) testing showed that signing does NOT change class files, and as many people will take the convenience of a web start over a jar, the two should (IMO) be identical.

I can’t be expected to remember everyone’s post. Unless it was VERY clear (on wooglys game listing page; which lists 4ktris-FPS-1.0.jar as the entry) that the web start should not be considered identical to the downloadable jar, I took it as that they were.

Any that was sub 4k after I had a play, should be considered. I’ll take it as I either downloaded the wrong version, or you have updated it, but not used the same compression techniques used for early submissions.

#242

[quote]Unless it was VERY clear (on wooglys game listing page; which lists 4ktris-FPS-1.0.jar as the entry) that the web start should not be considered identical to the downloadable jar, I took it as that they were.
[/quote]
actually I had no clue he had a webstart for that game :-X

#243

Odd, its the webstart thats linked ;D
Tis no problem thou.

#244

sorry :frowning: I did intend it to be an executable jar. For some reason when I came back to it a after a gap of a few weeks (I was rushingto get it in at the end :frowning: ) it suddenly seemed to be a lot larger than before and I was in a rush to make the jar smaller. The manifest was the first thing to go unfortunatly.

wrt the keys to use in the game I hopethat chopper4k wasn’t one of the problems. I thought i had put the keys to use on the initial screen that loads up.

If it’s a problem I’ll create a post-competition version that allows it to be webstarted downloaded (along with the competition version) and simple website to host it, rather than my current dumping ground for projects.

I guess that if there is going to carry on being this level of interest in contests then the rules will have to state how they should be run i.e. webstart

regards,
Dan.

#245

Surely the point of this competition was not to “make java look good”?

#246

[quote]Surely the point of this competition was not to “make java look good”?
[/quote]
Not for me, no, but some people have clearly stated here and elsewhere that for them it’s certainly part of the purpose.

I’m just throwing out observations :).

#247

To be honest I think it is important for the Java game programming community to focus on games that “look good” even if the game play is crap. It is the audio visual experience that gets attention, and if you can make that impressive then decent game developers will implictly understand that they can put a good game behind it as well. But it is the technical achievments primarily in terms of graphics performance that the general game dev community needs to see from Java to get them interested.

For example, I look at Wurm Online and think - hey that looks impressive. Then I show it to a colleague that isn’t so into Java and he mentions how BAD the graphics are compared to mainstream commercial games. (His words, I’m not taking a shot at the Wurm team - I couldn’t come close to making anything nearly as good.)

This is heading way off-topic for this thread though… so we can follow up somewhere else. My point is that Java contests that focus on quality that can compare to mainstream game dev are more helpful for promoting Java game development. The 4k contest has zero value for promoting commercial Java game developmet. It’s mainly just fun for the participants.

#248

[quote]The 4k contest has zero value for promoting commercial Java game developmet. It’s mainly just fun for the participants.
[/quote]
rubbish :P.

It makes the point strongly that developing java games let’s you put a heck of a lot of game into a tiny amount of code (because you’re cheating and have an extensive std lib installed already).

It also shows that you can get great performance without doing lots of hacking - in 4k, you don’t have enough space to hack, you’re relying very heavily on whatever the standard / basic service provided by the system is.

shrug.

#249

[quote]It makes the point strongly that developing java games let’s you put a heck of a lot of game into a tiny amount of code (because you’re cheating and have an extensive std lib installed already).
[/quote]
Ask Cas how significant this is in practice for commercial games, when you have to distribute a huge “std lib” :slight_smile:

I would say it makes that point VERY weakly, since only tiny bits of the std libs are used by the games showcased. Not one of the games in the contest has any significant commercial value in my opinion… well maybe for mobile phones… but then you aren’t dealing with the same std lib either :slight_smile:

[quote]t also shows that you can get great performance without doing lots of hacking…
[/quote]
Replace “great” with “decent” and I agree… but the point is none of the games are actually doing anything significant enough to compete with a mainstream video game. The fact that they get “great” performance when doing almost nothing required of a “real” commercial game is hardly relevant.

#250

It also shows that you can get great performance without
doing lots of hacking

Uhm… most games sacrificed some speed in order to gain some bytes. My main loop for example is horrible inefficient :slight_smile:

So what does it show? Uhm… you can put 16 tiny java games into one ping packet! ;D

Well, I think it was fun.

#251

I for one had a great time. I don’t really think it matter too much why the games were written or who wins or why. Just that the contest was entered by a lot of people and we got to see some funky little games :slight_smile:

Kev

#252

I agree with Kev. I think the community spirit it demonstrated is the most positive thing about the contest. I would have liked to participate myself, because I know how fun it can be. I even started a project, but sadly I had no time to finish it.

I’m looking forward to what happens with LWJGL16k and future contests.

#253

For me it was about having a bit of fun too. (and cos Kev convinced me to do it :slight_smile: )

If I had thought that the point was to showcase Java I probably wouldn’t have entered (for the best you may think :wink: )

just my 2p.
Dan

#254

[quote]>It also shows that you can get great performance without

doing lots of hacking

Uhm… most games sacrificed some speed in order to gain some bytes. My main loop for example is horrible inefficient :slight_smile:
[/quote]
That’s the point! :). Every programmer knows that to squeeze into that much space, you can’t do the high-performance stuff, so you’re reliant on how fast the language/platform is in a fairly virginal state, and - especially with java - you’re testing the ability of the runtime to make up for some bad compile-time stuff (how much can it patch up at runtime, when recompiling, what you screwed up at compile time in order to make your source smaller? :))

Shrug.

#255

I think anyone who knows what the ‘K’ in java4k stands for understands that these are not commercial quality games :wink: .

[quote]My point is that Java contests that focus on quality that can compare to mainstream game dev are more helpful for promoting Java game development.
[/quote]
Is that promoting java gamedevelopement or promoting non java aspects such as amount of available cash for hiring the best artists?

[quote]The 4k contest has zero value for promoting commercial Java game developmet
[/quote]
Can’t we just make 4k games and be happy?

:’(

#256

[quote]Can’t we just make 4k games and be happy?

:’(
[/quote]
Absolutely, I was just commenting on the fact that the point of the contest was not to “make java look good”?

Whereas, I think it would be a good idea to also have some contests where it is the point to make Java look good.

A general audience looking at the 4k entries is likely to say “Yep Java is still crap for games.” It takes very techie people to appreciate a 4k contest for what it is. For that reason I think care should be used with how such a contest is marketed. It’s almost a bad thing for some people to see the contest entries in terms of the acceptance of java games, despite the direct benefits to the participants in terms of developing skills, learning tricks, the social aspect of participating, and the perhaps the ability to convince some real tech-heads that you can make a decent game, as far as 4k games go :slight_smile: - with Java.

It would be nice to show (prove?) that Java’s game making suitability does indeed extend beyond the (great) 4k toys that you see in this contest.

#257

Ach. I was implicitly thinking of games dvelopers looking at it. Sorry, crossed wires.

#258

[quote]Look alive, people! It seems Javalobby just noticed us.
[/quote]
wow that is cool! you guys should all become mobile games programmers. for what u cand do with 4k, you could make some sweet games.

#259

where is the winner? it is supposed to be today the revelation

#260

[quote]where is the winner? it is supposed to be today the revelation
[/quote]
Blah^3h asked for an extension. We probably won’t have the results for another week or two. :slight_smile: