Did G4k even get entered?
Kev
hmm it isn’t on the game list. strange… I could’ve sworn I remembered putting it in there. Oh well, will fix it after school.
I guess we actually have 51 games 
G4k is what I’ve been using to abbreviate the name of my entry, GridBlaster 4k. It was on the list yesterday.
Sorry for any confusion. 
- HC
oh! well good, I didnt THINK I had missed any. So, 50 games it is 
Ok, since I want the judging to go as efficiently as possible, can someone (woogley) validate that all the entries meet the 4k requirement and any other rules that might disqualify them. I doubt there are any but there are things written above like [quote]I also think the version that the judges run (and judge) should be the 4k version.
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I don’t mind overhead for signing, but I don’t think each judge should have to double check that there is an unsigned jar that is 4k or under etc.
I also agree that since the rules stated that launching method was fairly open that it should be worth at the very most 1 point. Is there ANY entry that couldn’t be made to run with WebStart? Quite frankly I was hoping that all of them would be set up to run with webstart, regardless of wether the contestant provided a JNLP file, just to make the judging go smoother
I also think that there should be an automatic deduction for each OS out of the major 3 (Linux, Mac, Windows) that the game does not run on. By ‘run’ I mean the game must launch and be functional, if there are graphics or sound glitches specific to an OS that is forgivable. But if the game just crashes that’s -1 .
So according to the guidelines poseted by jbanes, we have:
10 points for Graphics
10 points for Game Play
5 points for sound effects
5 points for music
1 point for simple launch (webstart or java -jar X)
Let’s say that we add another 4 points at the judges descretion for just ‘coolness’ factors and enjoyability.
That would make each game out of a total of 35 possible points.
I assume that the scores from each judge will be added together to form the total score for that game, and the game with the highest total wins first place…
So a perfect score from all three judges would give 105 points and it’s all down hill from there
Anyone want to make a spreadsheet for this that the judges can share?
[quote]Let’s say that we add another 4 points at the judges descretion for just ‘coolness’ factors and enjoyability.
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Those are really covered by the first two categories. However, I have no objection to providing bonus points for special/cool features as long as those points aren’t excessive.
[quote]Anyone want to make a spreadsheet for this that the judges can share?
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I’ve already sent one to the other two judges, but I didn’t have your email address. Shoot me an email and I’ll forward it to you.
[quote]I also think that there should be an automatic deduction for each OS out of the major 3 (Linux, Mac, Windows) that the game does not run on. By ‘run’ I mean the game must launch and be functional, if there are graphics or sound glitches specific to an OS that is forgivable. But if the game just crashes that’s -1 .
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FWIW, this is a 4 Kilobyte contest. With issues like slow performance and no fullscreen support on non-windows platforms, I can’t fault anyone for excluding a non-windows platform. For example, my entry works great on both Macs and Windows. Despite the “stratch an itch advantage” that Linux supposedly has, it won’t run full-screen exclusive code. Similarly, other games have crash problems on Macs because of poor graphical performance. The authors shouldn’t be punished for this, rather the JVM vendors who need to fix the issues. 
swpalmer,
Personally I think a point should be awarded for self executing .jars because it cuts into the 4k limit, but not webstart since it is not included in the limit. On page 13 of this thread, I outlined my reasons for this.
I definitally think there should be an incentive to provide support for the three major platforms, it is a Java contest after all. Bonus points that are at the judges descresion are an excellent idea, this way cool features don’t go unrewarded simply because they don’t fit into a predefined category.
Will.
Gah! No! Clicked on the wrong darn tab and lost my post.
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Deadline:
IMO the deadline should be the end of the 1st of March, the world over.
$200?!:
Your joking? Ace! I had planned on picking up a teddy bear with a J4K-type logo from cafepress, but alas I’ve had a large bill come in at the last moment (I’ve had to fly off to Greece and rescue my g/f). Personally I don’t feel the prize should be particularly big for such a small compo. Anything too big, and you take away from the small-friendliness of it.
The D$s, anyone wanting 'em, post in the J4K thread at java.com. All my D$ MUST GO!, so if you don’t post by the 8th, they will be distributed to people that do post.
java -jar/jnlp or zip file+bat/sh
IMO it should not matter (other than the 1 point for jar -jar or a .jnlp file that fits in the 4k). The fact that spectators will not run a zip should be off-putting enough to stop contestants from doing so.
I’d like to thank Woogly, jbanes, the Judges ( swpalmer, ChrisM and blahblahblahh), codymanix (for not complaining about me running way with his idea) and *sob everyone else that sob made this sob happen
[quote]$200?!:
Your joking? Ace!
[/quote]
Not joking… someone (I have my ideas who it is…) donated to me $200 for the site work I did. The site is nothing worthy of $200, but I gladly take any donations heh. That’s what gave me the incentive to go ahead and do a full site on it.
edit: about the thing swpalmer is talking about not wanting to double-check if their are unsigned jars that meet the 4k… it won’t be me checking. I’ve done alot already, as people have nicely shown gratitude for, I think the judges should be able to handle a little side work of checking the unsigned jars… I think there’s only maybe 4 games that have this problem. This will need to be addressed in next year’s rules.
Anyway, unless someone wants to go ahead and verify that all JARs are indeed legit… judges will have to do a few extra link clicking… :-/
[quote]about not wanting to double-check if their are unsigned jars that meet the 4k… it won’t be me checking. I’ve done alot already
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I appreciate it! And thanks to JBanes for the spreadsheet. I just pointed it out as an example of something that not all the judges would need to do independently. Just trying to help things run smoothly. I will verify the size.
Next time I think Webstart should be a requirement, just because it makes the testing go faster and improves the web page when all entries work the same way.
[quote] And thanks to JBanes for the spreadsheet.
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You’re welcome.
[quote]Next time I think Webstart should be a requirement, just because it makes the testing go faster and improves the web page when all entries work the same way.
[/quote]
The problem with Webstart is that doing anything complex requires a rather massive signature. That signature in turn generates a complete Manifest file which costs the developer dearly. Worse yet, it’s difficult for the judges to verify the size without downloading each JNLP, finding the necessary filenames, and then downloading a non-executable file.
A much better option is to require an executable JAR for judging. Downloading is simple (Save As…, place in a “to be judged” folder), size can be easily verified, and execution is as simple as double-clicking. The only down side is that Applet games would be excluded. (The first 4K contest was 90%+ applets. However, this competition only has one or two applets, so I don’t think it would be a big concern.)
I like the idea of self-executing .jars for the 4K compo, it’s a nice complete package with no external resources like JNLP descriptors. JNLP is a great way people can test your game, but for official entries I personally feel they should be judged on the 4K package.
For 16K with an OpenGL library as an extension, webstart makes much more sense as the “official” distribution format. And if a signed .jar is compulsary then everyone is on a level playing field and as a percentage, the signing of a 16K .jar is much lower than 4K.
Will.
I agree. Webstart has far too much overhead. Whereas double click execution doesn’t add much. Even for 16k, webstart adds a lot.
I’m a bit confused, so a couple of questions (and I’d appreciate it if I could get this sorted out wihin the next 12 hours, see below)
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Who’s actuallly in charge of the contest? I need to know mainly because I need to know who to bug if I encounter strange problems when judging, or have queries, etc. I thought it was de facto mlk, but then it seemed to have moved to woogley, and then away again. Um…?
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When does the judging have to take place? How long have we got? etc…
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what do we do with our scores when we have them? Post them on the forums? Send them to someone in particular?
Because… in approximately 36 hours time I’m getting on a plane for 12 hours to get to the GDC. That would be a damn good time to play all the J4K entries back-to-back. But it’s already several days since the comp finished, so … is this too late?
If all goes to plan, I’ll be meeting up with ChrisM in person next week, so we could possibly put some time aside to swap notes etc then - but, again, is this delaying things too much?
And … I’m meeting a lot of people at the GDC, quite a few of whom would probably like to see the complete entries. If I do that, it would be nice to include that in my scores, e.g. if they discover a feature of a game that I just failed to notice etc. But that would delay posting results until 16th March or so (get back from GDC, go through jetlag, etc).
For this year, sure. I’m not going to have time to do that AND go through all the games and give them a good going-over.
But, for next year, anything hosted on JGF can have all the above automated trivially. Especially since JGF generates JNLP’s on-the-fly (with some intelligent timestamping to interact with webstart’s versioning), and by then will probably be generating manifests on the fly when asked to (I’ve already mostly got that, thanks to doing jardiff’s automatically, which involves parsing and processing manifests on-the-fly).
So … I’d say they should all be webstarted, but that the webstarting doesn’t count to the limit.
IMHO: the distribution mechanism is NOT part of the game. Executable-jar is, technically, part of the game-as-binary, although you could argue it’s only being put there to aid with the distribution. Webstart, OTOH, is very much a distribution mechanism. You wouldn’t include the webpage that hte game is downloade from in the 4k limit, so you shouldn’t include the webstart bumph either.
Hmm…there’s a thought…a “complete game” compo where the website + screenshots etc are included in the limit. Ah, I’m evil 8)
[quote] - Who’s actuallly in charge of the contest? I need to know mainly because I need to know who to bug if I encounter strange problems when judging, or have queries, etc.
[/quote]
I generally defer to Mlk as the de facto source, simply because he’s hosting the contest. Woogley has done a lot of work on the contest as well, so I generally take what he says as long as it’s not challenged by Mlk.
Unfortunately, we’ve almost got a “contest by commitee” going on. It’s working suprisingly well despite itself, but you may find yourself having to flag entries and coming back to discuss them with JGO as a whole.
[quote]- When does the judging have to take place? How long have we got? etc…
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I think Woogley said something about March 7th, but I don’t think there’s actually a deadline.
[quote] - what do we do with our scores when we have them? Post them on the forums? Send them to someone in particular?
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You can forward the completed spreadsheets to me. I’ll combine them into a final spreadsheet that contains each of your sheets, plus a final tally. (I hereby solomnly swear to execute my duties without cheating, etc., etc., etc.) I’ll then forward the spreadsheet to Woogley so he can post it on his site.
[quote]IMHO: the distribution mechanism is NOT part of the game. Executable-jar is, technically, part of the game-as-binary, although you could argue it’s only being put there to aid with the distribution. Webstart, OTOH, is very much a distribution mechanism. You wouldn’t include the webpage that hte game is downloade from in the 4k limit, so you shouldn’t include the webstart bumph either.
[/quote]
You’re ignoring the signature, though. The JNLP file doesn’t count right now, either. However, the gigantic signature that must be placed on a file to make fullscreen, networking, and other features work does count. And I don’t think there’s really any fair way to make it not count. i.e. You could recompress the file without the signaure to see if it falls below 4K, but what if you use a different compressor?
Also, using webstart forgoes some of the shock value of telling people that the game is written in 4K. When they download the file for themselves and can see that it’s 4,023 bytes (or whatever), then they are truely impressed at what both the programmer and Java can do. With Webstart they never see the file. As a result, it never becomes “real” to them that the game is 4K.
[quote] - Who’s actuallly in charge of the contest?
[/quote]
Er, no idea/“the commuity”/Woogly&I?
As long as I can spend loads of dukes, play funky games and anounce it each year I’m happy.
[quote] I need to know mainly because I need to know who to bug if I encounter strange problems when judging, or have queries, etc. I thought it was de facto mlk, but then it seemed to have moved to woogley, and then away again. Um…?
[/quote]
Feel free to drop me an email if you have a query, I think you have my address, if not I have a gmx.co.uk account. Same username as here.
Idealy, items should be discussed, and agreed on by the community, with either Woogly or I giving a final judgement. Thou, it up to the community…
[quote] - When does the judging have to take place? How long have we got? etc…
- what do we do with our scores when we have them? Post them on the forums? Send them to someone in particular?
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Woogly has offered to agrigate the scores, so email him. I think he wants them by 8th.
[quote]Because… in approximately 36 hours time I’m getting on a plane for 12 hours to get to the GDC.
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Lucky man, have fun.
I wish I was going :-[ , the game design challage sounds really cool.
[quote]If all goes to plan, I’ll be meeting up with ChrisM in person next week, so we could possibly put some time aside to swap notes etc then - but, again, is this delaying things too much?
[/quote]
I don’t think so, and think it would be a Good Thing™.
I’m in no hurry to see the final scores, is anyone in a rush to do so?
I’ll go through each of the entrys Monday night, and check that they area all under 4k.
My plan for tomorrow night is thus:
If they only offer one Jar (webstarted or not), and its over 4k, I’ll try to make it under 4k (I’m nice like that), by removing the manifest & zipping with kzip. But I’m not going to be putting too much effort into doing so.
If they offer two jars (one signed for webstart, and one unsigned), i’ll unzip the contents of both, and run a diff over all the conetent bar the manifest file.
I’ll then post the results here, and (if webstarted/includes a .bat/.sh file) I’ll post the default params.
[quote]Also, using webstart forgoes some of the shock value of telling people that the game is written in 4K. When they download the file for themselves and can see that it’s 4,023 bytes (or whatever), then they are truely impressed at what both the programmer and Java can do. With Webstart they never see the file. As a result, it never becomes “real” to them that the game is 4K.
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Tis a good point.
[quote]I thought it was de facto mlk, but then it seemed to have moved to woogley, and then away again. Um…?
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Mlk runs the contest, but I’m in charge of making the games officially part of the contest and showcasing them on a site, hence the new site I’m making.
I said last week I’d like the results on the 8th. But seeing as two judges are both heading to GDC, I dont see a problem with extending the date to say… the 10th? I think that’s a wednesday. Any thoughts on that?
Like I said last week, please PM them to me so I can take a numerical average of all judges’ scores