I've switched IDEs! (pretty sure)

Well it looks like I have switched to NetBeans (4.1) beta from Eclipse!

I never thought the day would come but that new 4.1beta seems to have gotten any kinks out that for me, added the Eclipse project import option (which isn’t totally automatic but close), has excellent mobile(J2ME) support (Sony was using it at there booth at GDC with there Java3D stuff).

It’s fast and responsive, and I am running on 3 year old AMDs, and finally the in-memory size is reasonable! (no bigger than Eclipse)

Don’t mean to be a commerical for NetBeans, but I’m pretty excited.

Anyone else switching? Maybe the other direction? What and why?

I’ve gotten a full copy of IntelliJ IDEA which I mean to start using in anger at some point. I’m just fed up with all the bugs in Eclipse :wink: OK fair enough I’m using the milestone versions but some of them are really bloody irritating and don’t seem to want to go away and the way the UI jerks and judders under GC annoys me too.

but…

it IS free…

Cas :slight_smile:

Always meant to take a look at Eclipse but never got around to it, especially since Netbeans has always done the job and the last few versions seem to be very good.

…and what do you use on your osx box? Eclipse 3.1?

Yeah, NB4.1 is a real big improvement over 4.0. I use to use the daily build :slight_smile:

funny I use Eclipse for all my development and CVS and SVC projects under (I think) the latest milestone, m8, and I haven’t found any bugs.

[quote]…and what do you use on your osx box? Eclipse 3.1?
[/quote]
NetBeans is Java just like Eclipse, so there is a Mac OSX installer, no?

NB4.1 does look really good. Unfortunately it has graphical glitches (don’t like my windows theme - JRE bug), and has cursor slow downs (again, JRE bug).

Back to evaluating IDEA over Eclipse…

Yep, I was hoping that there would be a mobility pack for the OSX version of the beta netbeans… unfortunately not though… so i’ll stick to eclipse for the mo for mobile java development.

I’ll give netbeans a go…

Best IDE ever was called Kawa. It was really simple really lightweight and very fast. I was gutted when they were bought out and dropped by another programming house.

Hmm… sounds like I need to download the new beta.

I gave NetBeans another chance when 4.0 came out… but at that point is still wasn’t near Eclipse in terms of the features I use most… code completion (after Eclipse, Netbeans felt like notepad as far as code completion was concerned), auto import, auto-fix, refactoring, background compiing… And it was still noticably slower than Eclipse.

The ant-based build system slows me down a lot too. I have an Ant build script for my projects anyway, but I like how I never have to compile in Eclipse… the code is always ready to run.

If 4.1 has improved some of those features then I will certainly check it out again.

This is definitely a good point to Eclipse.
I absolutely love that all I have to do is push shift+f12 and my program pops up instantly.

[quote]Hmm… sounds like I need to download the new beta.

I gave NetBeans another chance when 4.0 came out… but at that point is still wasn’t near Eclipse in terms of the features I use most… code completion (after Eclipse, Netbeans felt like notepad as far as code completion was concerned), auto import, auto-fix, refactoring, background compiing… And it was still noticably slower than Eclipse.

The ant-based build system slows me down a lot too. I have an Ant build script for my projects anyway, but I like how I never have to compile in Eclipse… the code is always ready to run.

If 4.1 has improved some of those features then I will certainly check it out again.
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[quote]If 4.1 has improved some of those features then I will certainly check it out again.
[/quote]
Not much. NetBeans follows a different philosophy. So when you pick out some special feature, you’ll always find another product behind.

But it improved alot in its own features (e.g. the Ant support).

And it can import Eclipse projects :slight_smile:

" Anyone else switching? Maybe the other direction? What and why?"

IDEs who try to work for every single language in the market must very good in all languages or they will fail. Netbeans 4.0 has improved a lot.

-> Much cleaner and intuitive user interface.

-> Ant and cvs support.

-> Refactoring and automatic syntax checking features.

-> Documentation and source code for any api on an editor tab.

-> Completely modular and suports many extensions, including something to do Swing interfaces, which i don’t use because its much easier and efficent do a Swing intf with RelativeLayout and a xml document.

-> Basic xml features to help editing and validating xml documents with schemas and dtds

It had all this stuff already. But the most significant is the cleanup of the ui. I think it shows they have had the help of some HCI specialist to make Nb interface much easier to work with.

[quote]Well it looks like I have switched to NetBeans (4.1) beta from Eclipse!
(…)
It’s fast and responsive, and I am running on 3 year old AMDs, and finally the in-memory size is reasonable! (no bigger than Eclipse)

Don’t mean to be a commerical for NetBeans, but I’m pretty excited.

Anyone else switching? Maybe the other direction? What and why?
[/quote]
Yes, me, and I’m pretty excited, too. :slight_smile: I’ve been using JBuilder for years but Netbeans 4.0 and 4.1_beta did please me so much, so I switched recently. Currently I’ve got Netbeans 4.0 and 4.1_beta running.
4.1_beta has some smart improvements over 4.0 but I think sometimes it falls on my me because of the beta-bugs… (that’s why I still use 4.0).
What’s also nice are the “Development Builds” including the Q-Build (for qualtity beta build, nice idea). Which one did you find to be the most stable beta so far? (So I’ll have a look at it.)

What I like a lot is tha fact that Netbeans is a true Java IDE because it not only does run out of the box on Win, Mac, Linux, and Solaris but you can also download the zip and tarball versions with no installers etc and just start it (via exe, bash, Mac script, or by changing it manually to your exotic platform). True Java without SWT & Co. :slight_smile:
That’s why it also it runs perfectly with Java 1.5 …

You’re right: I also think it’s fast and responsive and it doesn’t take too much RAM. I think it’s needing less RAM than JBuilder (at least my 512 MB Win2000 box doesn’t swap out so oftenly compared to JBuilder).

Good Job at Sun plus all the OpenSource developers.
Thanks a lot!

Yeah Kawa was the best IDE I have ever used. Im currently fine with Jcreator, although there are issues with it I would like to see resolved (mostly in the interface)

Using JCreator Pro 3.5 and like it alot! Before that I was a JBuilder clubie.

Still use TextPad on occasion

Well I gave it a try… it still doesn’t compare to Eclipse

  • it is MUCH slower than Eclipse (in every way possible)

  • highlighting problems in the source as you type is very slow

  • code completion is unusably bad
    e.g. JButton b = new … what does NetBeans suggest? Well after 10 seconds or more of “please wait…” it offers “com.sun.org.apache.bcel.internal.generic.AALOAD” followed by a list of every bloody class in the JDK. WTF?
    Eclipse on the other hand pops up in 1 second with “JButton” at the top of the list.

  • there doesn’t appear to be an equivalent to the “auto correct” feature

  • it requires installation of the Java Docs, Eclipse gets these directly our of src.zip

  • testing changes still requires a tedious build step

  • doesn’t appear to support the “change and continue” feature so that you can tweak the currently running code.

  • refactoring still limited

  • no decent Subversion support (e.g. a rename refactoring has no way to tell Subversion that a file was renamed)

  • no code formatter

  • no auto complete in javadoc comments

Some of the above are no doubt available with plugins - but they are so basic they should be available in the core - this isn’t a text editor it’s an IDE.

It is an improvement for sure, but it still has a long way to go.

Conclusion: If you are using NetBeans and you switch to Eclipse expect a huge productivity boost. If you move in the other direction, well, just reverse that :slight_smile:

I can’t afford paying for IDEA given the incremental improvement that it may have over Eclipse, but of the free tools, Eclipse is still the clear winner.

Wake me up again when they release NetBeans 4.2.

It doesn’t take that long in my 1ghz computer. It does that because it shows you an alphabetic list of matches. You can the further refine the search by keeping hiting keys while the code completion window is up.

Having the most usefull components at the top of the list can be an advantage but its usually an ignorable one since you oly have to type two letters “JB” for the code to be completed.

Thank god for that. Auto-correct things suck IMO.

You may be making some comfusion here. Nb detects and install src.jar automaticaly, but it gives the user the freedom to select the javadoc dirs from where to read javadocs. There is no need to parse src.jar for docs because they are already parsed and available for download from Sun.

I think i want to avoid that, personaly.

Mmmm ?

Update ?

Who da hell documents and formats his code anyway. ;D

But really i think these are all minor details can be added with plug-ins if people want that stuff in the first place.

Stuff like auto-correction and editing code while debuging is very dangerous. I have been misleaded by it many times and i prefer to do it myself than to have the IDE messing with my code. The last time i used Eclipse in a school work for cg and tried to debug my code i have serious problems with ide crashes, so i prefer the classic way of doing things.

I was testing on a dual 1.7Ghz Xeon. I tried auto-complete many times that session… other sessions were a bit faster, still slower than Eclipse, and still “dumb” in terms of the suggestions offered. Eclipse is much better at code completion because it is more sensitive to the context. It offers local variables and accessible classes that “fit” better at the top of the list… like classes that can be safely cast to the type needed etc.

[quote]It does that because it shows you an alphabetic list of matches. You can the further refine the search by keeping hiting keys while the code completion window is up.
[/quote]
Same with Eclipse, but it is much faster, and has the most likely matches at the top of the list.

[quote]Thank god for that. Auto-correct things suck IMO.
[/quote]
One key to add throw declarations or wrap code in a try-catch block, or add a cast, or add stubs to implement an interface, or add a method to a different class from that point that you would want to call it from the current class you are editing… All major speed-ups and typo-avoidance features… all with the same key press. No need to memorize a zillion different fancy key presses.

[quote]You may be making some comfusion here. Nb detects and install src.jar automaticaly, but it gives the user the freedom to select the javadoc dirs from where to read javadocs. There is no need to parse src.jar for docs because they are already parsed and available for download from Sun.
[/quote]
No confusion. NB requires more disk space and another trip to java.sun.com to get the docs when Eclipse gets if from Src.jar directly and faster.

[quote]I think i want to avoid that, personaly.
[/quote]
I use edit-and-continue all the time… it is yet another time saver. At least I CAN use it with Eclipse.

[quote]Mmmm ?
[/quote]
I mean Eclipse has more refactoring options out of the box, and the refactoring works with the source control plugins so that when classes are moved or renamed the source control repository is kept up to date with the changes automatically.

[quote]But really i think these are all minor details can be added with plug-ins if people want that stuff in the first place.

Stuff like auto-correction and editing code while debuging is very dangerous. I have been misleaded by it many times and i prefer to do it myself than to have the IDE messing with my code. The last time i used Eclipse in a school work for cg and tried to debug my code i have serious problems with ide crashes, so i prefer the classic way of doing things.
[/quote]
If you don’t use the features then you won’t miss them obviously. I use them all the time and find they really improve productivity.

I totally loath the “Editor Abbreviations” -always screwing up the code as you type. I’m forced to turn them off altogether and lose editing speed or do quirky things like know to type shift-space after various arbitrary variable names to avoid bogus syntax errors that the IDE puts in the code. Eclipse handles the same sort of feature with the same “complete” key used to complete all other code. It knows from the context what keywords make sense. And Eclipse NEVER AUTOMATICALLY PUTS SYNTAX ERRORS INTO MY CODE!

I don’t mean to be praising Eclipse and bashing NetBeans. To be truthful I WANT to use NetBeans, just in protest over the wast of time that is SWT. :slight_smile:
But NetBeans is too much of a step backwards. More keystrokes to learn just to work quickly with the basic features, slower, irritating etc.

Eclipse does have it’s quirks - the workspace concept can be limiting for example. But it just does most of the routine stuff so much better. I’m glad to see that NetBeans is paying attention though. Competition in this area pays off for us developers.