floating performance

[swpalmer]

[quote] Have you even the read the info that’s available on the site? They have accepted a number of licenses made by corporations like IBM, Sun, Nokia etc.
[/quote]
Yes. So?
Take a look at the very first point of their definition of Open Source:
[i]1. Free Redistribution

The license shall not restrict any party from selling or giving away the software as a component of an aggregate software distribution containing programs from several different sources. The license shall not require a royalty or other fee for such sale[/i]

Translation - the people that put most of the work into the project must let any idiot that comes along give it away for free (to make it hard for you to make money) or make millions from your work (take the profits that you deserve). No thanks.

Let’s skip ahead to #3:
[i]3. Derived Works

The license must allow modifications and derived works, and must allow them to be distributed under the same terms as the license of the original software.[/i]

Translation: You must allow people to make incompatible Java runtimes and fork the community, development efforts, etc. so that it degrades into an unfocus mess.

It gets even more crazy:
9. License Must Not Restrict Other Software…

Where GPL clearly violates this, they make a pathetic attempt to say that it does not. There explanation for why GPL conforms make no sense as they clearly state that GPL does not conform if you link GPL code to produce a “single work” …

So basically the OSI has no credibility.

Take a look at the projects that attempt to make a living from open source - e.g. MySQL with it’s dual-license model. Sure we’re open source, unless you try to make money - then we want a cut and OSI’s defintion point #1 no longer applies.

[quote]- Can you pick out parts of the JRE source code, build and distribute together with your product? Nope.
[/quote]
what is your point? Sun is business. They aren’t in business so you can steal the bits of their code that you want and put it in an unrelated product. Why should Sun write your programs for you?

[quote]- Can you use the Java source code as base for creating a new improved Java library? Nope.
[/quote]
You sure can. Did you miss the part about Sun accepting patches? Oh, did you mean you want to compete with them by using their own code - for free? Why on Earth would they want to do that? Sun licenses their code to competitors so they at least get something for their efforts. Mind you I’m all for a clean-room implementation of Java that is Open Source - so long as it passes Sun’s conformance tests. I just don’t see the point in Sun not keeping control of their product.

[quote]- If Sun wants to terminate Java, can you take the source code and continue to distribute the JRE? Nope.
[/quote]
You don’t need the source code to distribute the JRE, so you have no point here.

[phazer]

There are two issues here:

• The definition of “open source”. I assumed most people used the definition given on opensource.org. Apparently that’s not the case. It seems your definition of open source is when you can see the source code and (optionally?) being able to submit patches (which might be rejected) to someone who mangage the code. Correct?

• If the Java source code should be released under a license that opensource.org can approve of. It seems you don’t think that’s necessary and that you are content with Sun’s current licensing scheme.

We disagree on both accounts, so I don’t see this discussion going anywhere.

Btw, RMS is talking about free software, not open source.

[blahblahblahh]

Btw, RMS is talking about free software, not open source.

RMS + cohorts and imitators deliberately started and worked hard to cultivate the redefinition of open-source in their own image. In RMS’s case it suits him politically, in other people’s cases they have other motivations. All are inherently selfish, no matter how much they wrap it up in “for the good of mankind” or “for the good of the economy”. The biggest con is the marketing speak that “most licenses take rights away from you where GPL gives them back”.

IMHO.

[HamsterofDeath]

i tried the benchmark (unmodified first version) on page 2 on a p4 2.8 ghz
result:

sun 1.5.0_02 server Xcompile

Float: 2761 iterations / s
Double: 2760 iterations / s
Fixed point: 1378 iterations / s
2.9308171, 2.8822784, 2.9308173801885786


jrockit 1.5.0 

Float: 2300 iterations / s
Double: 2299 iterations / s
Fixed point: 1381 iterations / s
2.9308174, 2.8822784, 2.9308173801885786

sun 1.50_02 hotspot Xcompile

Float: 939 iterations / s
Double: 948 iterations / s
Fixed point: 1218 iterations / s
2.9308171, 2.8822784, 2.9308173801885786

seems like jrockit doesn’t rock that much, als floats arent faster.

[Raghar]

It looks like they are forgeting to set the CPU state flag. Then again SSE instructions should work faster even without setting any flag.

[zingbat]

[quote]Or you can open source the JRE… :-/
[/quote]
What he said. The advantages are so obvious.

Let me enumerate just a few:

-> security

No one relies on secret code anymore for security policies.

-> identification

If Sun wants to make sure people use their own version of the JRE and not something else they can sign it and provide a way for people to verify the signature.

-> specification

Most JRE apis follow a specification. People don’t need to use Suns own code to verify that specification and make code that run in several flavors of open-source JREs. They would only have to suport the specification interfaces and constraints.

-> readability and maintainable code

Code that follows a strict specification is very easy to maintain without major issues. See java Swing for the wrong example.

-> marketing/sailings

Open-source is good for marketing and sailings. You can organize your code with independent modules with different copyrights. Some can be open-source others can have a different license. They can be mixed together within a pluggable architecture.

-> bug tracking

Bugs get tracked faster when there is a big community support for an open source project.

-> independence

If something happens to Sun JRE it doesn’t have any repercussion on the others JREs. Its not the kill-switch for every other JRE.

Sun can still follow their own development schedulle but others do not have to depend on their development pace.

IMO the only reason why Sun doesn’t want to OS Java is because they would have an hard time controling development pace and the proliferation of several JREs that would be better than Suns own solution. Thus Sun is trying to run away from competition.

However i think it would be naive to expect that Sun would Open-Source Java. Just look at some of the code they make for the JRE. If people here can so easly point out faults in their code imagine how people would humiliate Sun coders in their own field if it was Open-Source. How would they make any money from it ?

[blahblahblahh]

A few thoughts, although I can’t help but thing that you’re trolling.

No one relies on secret code anymore for security policies.

My old security professor keynoted at the international C++ conference only a few weeks ago with a talk about how this has no effect at all on actual security (and appealed for more organizations to open up their private databases to allow him and others to conduct research to conclusively prove this on a large scale).

If Sun wants to make sure people use their own version of the JRE and not something else they can sign it and provide a way for people to verify the signature.

You’ve completely missed the point of Marketing, trademark law, and everything to do with the fact that people don’t much care what’s on the box, rather “if it looks about right I’ll use it”.

Most JRE apis follow a specification. People don’t need to use Suns own code to verify that specification and make code that run in several flavors of open-source JREs. They would only have to suport the specification interfaces and constraints.

Again, go and see how this happens in the real-world. Sun’s certification process that has for so long been decried as too arduous is far far too easy to pass with a broken system.

You can organize your code with independent modules with different copyrights. Some can be open-source others can have a different license. They can be mixed together within a pluggable architecture.

Speaking as someone who has been in charge of making decisions for multi-million dollar systems, your paragraph above translates to:

“will waste so much of my time having to ask the legal dept what I can and cannot use, where I can use it, how I can use it, and what I’m allowed to let my team work on that I’d rather code the whole thing myself by hand in assembler”

People don’t have time to live in a fairytale world where they have infinite resource and inifinte time to make up for all the crap and confusion. They need easier solutions.

Bugs get tracked faster when there is a big community support for an open source project.

…but get fixed much much slower. Net result is not necessarily better and often worse.

[zingbat]

[quote]A few thoughts, although I can’t help but thing that you’re trolling.
[/quote]
??? Since when expressing an opinion is trolling ???

My old security professor keynoted at the international C++ conference only a few weeks ago with a talk about how this has no effect at all on actual security (and appealed for more organizations to open up their private databases to allow him and others to conduct research to conclusively prove this on a large scale).

Point taken then.

You’ve completely missed the point of Marketing, trademark law, and everything to do with the fact that people don’t much care what’s on the box, rather “if it looks about right I’ll use it”.

You completely missed the point of my certification argument. It has nothing to do with trademark laws.

And blah you know that the SUN logo is about 90% the reason people use java and not another vm don’t you ?

Again, go and see how this happens in the real-world. Sun’s certification process that has for so long been decried as too arduous is far far too easy to pass with a broken system.

I was talking about specification not certification.

Speaking as someone who has been in charge of making decisions for multi-million dollar systems, your paragraph above translates to:

“will waste so much of my time having to ask the legal dept what I can and cannot use, where I can use it, how I can use it, and what I’m allowed to let my team work on that I’d rather code the whole thing myself by hand in assembler”

People don’t have time to live in a fairytale world where they have infinite resource and inifinte time to make up for all the crap and confusion. They need easier solutions.

Then you haven’t read my paragraph and do not understand the application of modular architectures. Frankly blah this time i think its you who are trolling here. Java uses modular and pluggable architectures in many of its extensions with great benefits.

An advice don’t use arguments like: “Speaking as someone who has been in charge of making decisions for multi-million dollar systems”. It doesn’t bring you any credibility or anything good.

…but get fixed much much slower. Net result is not necessarily better and often worse.

I don’t see your logic here. So if more people involved in helping track bugs then bugs get fixed slower. Strange it doesn’t happen with linux which is widely used as the os of choice for servers because of its stability and robustness.

[blahblahblahh]

??? Since when expressing an opinion is trolling ???

When you repeat specious claims that have been aired many times over and done to death, and have on the same day shown the attitude of “when people have explained it, I still don’t believe them”. Shrug. The thing about a troll is you can never be sure when it is or not :P.

You completely missed the point of my certification argument. It has nothing to do with trademark laws.

You could explain what you mean and I’d try to understand, and I could explain in more detail next time. What I was referring to was that the purpose behind trademark laws is to make up for the fact that people make decisions based on spurious similarities, and it’s very easy to confuse the consumer.

Even today, mostly no consumer gives a monkey’s whose VM they use, even those who can’t run any java apps because they have the broken, unsupported, withdrawn MS VM.

And blah you know that the SUN logo is about 90% the reason people use java and not another vm don’t you ?

That thinking is part of the point I was making, although I think you’ll find that your actual statement is misleading. Most people don’t look at the logo, and if they had to choose beteween a Sun one and a MS one would probably choose the latter because more people have heard of MS. Consumers are fickle and stupid; or, at least, en masse they act that way.

I was talking about specification not certification.

Certification consists of specification. Again, feel free to explain what you mean and hilight what I misunderstood.

An advice don’t use arguments like: “Speaking as someone who has been in charge of making decisions for multi-million dollar systems”. It doesn’t bring you any credibility or anything good.

Yes, it does, because you make statements like this:

I don’t see your logic here. So if more people involved in helping track bugs then bugs get fixed slower. Strange it doesn’t happen with linux which is widely used as the os of choice for servers because of its stability and robustness.

…which show you lack large-project or commercial experience. We’re talking about the basics, the 101 of tech project mangement here, and you have no idea about them. There’s a statement about not arguing with the ignorant because they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience; I’m not going to spend the next week patiently explaining to you basic aspects of project management that, if you really cared about this subject, are well within your ability to go and research for yourself. And are grossly off-topic for a java games development board.

And, in a similar vein, this:

Then you haven’t read my paragraph and do not understand the application of modular architectures. Frankly blah this time i think its you who are trolling here. Java uses modular and pluggable architectures in many of its extensions with great benefits.

Get with the program: no-one gives a **** about whether the API’s plug together if the licensing issues are even mildly scary. It really is as simple as that. Until you have at least a basic understanding of the decision making process behind real projects you’ll only have two options in this conversation: trust the people who’ve spent decades doing this and know what they’re talking about, or refuse to believe them and keep on stating your “opinions” as if they had relevance. (which, of course, is exactly what a troll would do).

I really don’t mean any offence, but - apparently out of pure ignorance - you’re spouting rubbish and/or ignoring the plain commonly known facts.

[Jeff]

This seems to have devolved into an open source debate, which is rather off-topic. is it time to move it to a more apporpriate forum?

[zingbat]

When you repeat specious claims that have been aired many times over and done to death, and have on the same day shown the attitude of “when people have explained it, I still don’t believe them”. Shrug. The thing about a troll is you can never be sure when it is or not :P.

I don’t have a clue of what you are talking about here. But someone isn’t a troll just because he doesn’t accept your “explanations”. Thats a very immature answer.

Its funny that you answered my arguments by being ignorant and calling them rubish. Then claiming i don’t accept your own arguments and keep repeating them without pointing out my reasons.

Dude if someone is being a troll here its you not me. If you can’t defend yourself like an inteligent person then spare me the crap replies even 5 year old could emulate.