Fewer end users?

General Discussions
#1

I’m an advisor on a PC forum and I’ve noticed a strong dislike of Java these days. Here’s an example from one of today’s threads:
"I still strongly feel most people would be better off without Java and, if they have software that depends on Java, replace it with software that doesn’t require it. It may require buying some of the software needed and/or learning how to use new software (granted, that can be daunting) but that is better than leaving one’s computer vulnerable to attack. "
Is anything being done to reverse this general opinion? I know Java 8 has Lamda expressions but perhaps 8.1 might have something that will encourage users to trust Java again.

PS I advise on PC builds and not on Java

#2

Hi

There are security flaws in Word, Flash, Silverlight, Firefox, Internet Explorer, Chrome, … Oracle puts ads and malwares into the installer, you have to untick the check box not to install those craps, Oracle is just ruining end user experience. If there are enough contributors, Icedtea-Web will be ported to Windows which will allow Windows users to benefit of OpenJDK + an alternative implementation of Java Webstart and applets. Icedtea-Web doesn’t fully support JNLP in applets yet but it doesn’t encourage you to install craps on your machine.

Moreover, as several organizations including Mozilla Foundation has decided that all plugins should die, we have a lot of work to prevent them from succeeding.

Create great games so that people have no other choice than installing Java ;D

#3

If Minecraft is any indication, I don’t see java going anywhere anytime soon even with Oracle’s crappy end-user experience. :wink:

As long as they’re fun games and useful applications written in java, it’s not going anywhere short of the OSes themselves trying to outright block it.

#4

Most people who hate java are generally undereducated on java, or blame javascript because they don’t know the difference. They see poorly written/optimized java applications and blame java itself instead of the programmers behind them. There’s also a ton of old bad stigma from back when java was “too slow”. Hell, it was only like what, 10 years ago the concept of a 3D game in java would of been insane, and now we have tons of 3D games, like Minecraft. 95% of the crap about java is outdated information from stubborn PC users. :confused:

Yeah, there’s security flaws, but there’s security flaws in everything, java was just in the spotlight a while back.

#5

I never have any of those issues. I’s because most people just buy a computer and use express-installation because they have no idea what they are actually doing.
It’s like driving a car without any driving lesson. I don’t think that it’s a java-problem as oracle smashed buggy applets with shitty signing.
In addition most people don’t even “know” java. They installed it because their computer told them to do so and use the applications but they have no idea what they are using.
So I don’t see any reason to encourage someone to trust Java again, because in the end the amount people who “care about the weakness of java” (in my opinion useless and old-fashioned) is insignificant. I haven’t met a non-programmer, and those who blame java are mostly don’t know what they are talking about, that complains about java security-issues ::slight_smile:

#6

I think there is definitely a lot of negative feelings around Java.
When I mention that I develop software using java to family members, the general response is something along the lines of “oh, that thing that always pops up wanting to update.”
Of course Windows, the Win API, drivers, OpenGL, etc. have to update as well for a C or C++ program to work, but people tend to accept these types of updates as necessary.

Smart applications like Firefox and Chrome just auto update (this relates to why browsers are trying to kill plugins). The average user never knows that applications auto-update except when the occasional program breaks, which the user blames on general computer unreliability. On the corporate side, IT can tun off auto-updating into control panel or the program’s settings if the company needs a specific version.

I’ve played Spiral Knights rather extensively, over a 1000 hours, and have heard very few complaints or even mentions of Java because Spiral Knights packages a small JRE within it’s installation folder. Everything runs exactly like Three Rings expects and no one ever complains; sure the bundled JRE might be out of date and security bug riddled, but end users will never know, so who cares…

There are so many compatibility and computer specific issues with Java’s version, the Java class path, .jar double-click to run functionality, etc. that I think pre-bundled and jigsaw like JREs can solve. The average user doesn’t really care if your program takes up an extra 50MB of disk space.
Once jigsaw comes out, I’m sure a lot of LWJGL games could include a small pre-bundled JRE without their application size increasing dramatically by leaving out stuff like Swing (if possible), SQL, JDBC, XML, etc. packages.

I agree that Java has collected a lot of bad connotations over the years. I think one of the easiest ways to ‘fix’ this perception is to hid Java. Don’t include the word ‘Java’ in error messages, bundle the JRE with your app, hid your .jar behind an .EXE or script wrapper. Like Phibedy and Rayvolution have said, people don’t understand and don’t care :-\

#7

I’m all for an embedded JRE.

Pretty much boils down to if your game requires more than a single download and a double-click it isn’t packaged right.

#8

I’m the biggest Java advocate ever. Even I’ve disabled the Java plugin on all my browsers and the only reason I even have a system JRE installed is because it comes with the JDK which I use to run Eclipse. I advise anyone running Java to uninstall it unless they’re forced to use it for something.

Java should always have been just a runtime library. The plugin was a terrible idea, thank goodness it’s in its death throes now.

Cas :slight_smile:

#9

It’s already possible with JiGong which was showcased during FOSDEM 2014. Personally, I won’t try to hide Java, I will just try to ease the install of my game. For example, if I succeed in making an RPM, it will depend on OpenJDK. Maybe the Java plugin will die but Java itself will survive.

#10

IMO a runtime should only be installed on a server.

For anything else, bundle that sucker so the installation and updating is taken out of the hands of the end user and you can just provide them a download for their particular OS. Apparently Java 8 makes that even easier by providing a minimized runtime.

#11

Perhaps we should have a little tutorial on how to bundle things as an exe. I’ve posted on here asking how to do this but I’ll admit I find the various tools a bit (actually very) confusing. I guess it would be too much to expect the java compiler to optionally produce an exe for various OS. I assume this would be way more compact than producing 100MB downloads that play noughts and crosses.

#12

We’ve been down that road before, having 100mb downloads is not a problem that needs solving in this day and age of high bandwidth.

#13

@gimbal I assume you’re talking about the compact profiles, nice feature :slight_smile:

I see two remaining problems:

#14

[quote=“gimbal,post:12,topic:47712”]
Perhaps. I know if I saw a download for a little game that was 100MB then I’d probably move on. I guess we’re all different. I know for my server I have to pay for bandwidth (I believe 20GB a month) which would mean at max I could only every have 200 downloads a month and that’s not taking into account general usage of the site. I wonder what the cost of running this site might be if the average download here became 100MB?

#15

Yup!

Care to elaborate? What would you need to sign precisely that Oracle hasn’t already signed?

I am 100% and utterly in love with Mojang’s launcher application idea.

#16

Why does everyone forget PDFs? But really this is all silly. The security of a Java ‘application’ is slightly better than the security of a C++ one. End of story. Or even more to the point…why care about what people think?

#17

[quote=“Roquen,post:16,topic:47712”]
tell that to Betamax

#18

Since Mac OS X 10.8, Gatekeeper prevents you from installing an application coming from Internet by default, I have to update the instructions to install my game as I said here:
http://sourceforge.net/p/tuer/tickets/3/

When you package your application as an .app file signed with an Apple Developer ID certificate, it “might” work without having to modify those settings.

Those companies want to make us pay, they just create some tolls. You have to pay so that they allow you to execute your code on their systems, you have to pay for “trusted” code signing, “trusted” time-stamping and/or using their market places. Some developers claim that you have less risk of false positives with virus scanners when using Authenticode but I’m sure it’s wrong.

If you work around their tolls, one day they will find a way to force you not to do so, that’s what happened mainly under Mac. If tons of developers move from Java Webstart to fat JARs or executables, Apple, Microsoft and the others will find a way to make us pay.

#19

Just … pay the tolls. It’s not really very expensive. If you’re making free stuff then remember that there is no such thing as free - there are hidden costs in many other currencies than money. Safety, trust, bandwidth, patience. Etc.

As for auto updating… tried that. Worked reasonably well. Ended up just going Steam-only for simplicity’s sake. (Note: no signature required on Steam)

Cas :slight_smile:

#20

[quote=“princec,post:19,topic:47712”]
Is there a guide on how to do this. How much efforts required? You mentioned C++ before. What restrictions are in place? is there a sort of Steam emulator?