Does anyone know Sony's viewpoint on Java SE Gaming? And ...

General Discussions
#41

Very true, and the fact is that no game company is making Sun any money right now because Sun is not into gaming. Kind of a Catch-22 here. However, once the IT companies realize that Java is losing the battle to a more popular language, Sun is going to notice. But as kylix rightly said - that might be too late.

Now here’s the problem: Sun is currently losing a lot of money (I think $800M last year) while Microsoft’s earnings are at an all-time high. It is therefore clear why Sun’s management is careful about entering new and unfamiliar teritory.
Fortunately for Sun, it has a very powerful ally - IBM. You should know that IBM’s revenues are three times those of Microsoft’s (though its earnings are about the same), and IBM has bet its chips on Java. So far.

So what Sun should do is to build a “Java Alliance” with IBM, possibly HP and hopefully Sony. This goes far beyond the humble subject matter of this forum. It’s part of a bigger picture of how can Sun compete against a stronger company that never takes any prisoners.

But Sun must understand that gaming is a crucial battle in this war. You can’t always choose where to wage your battles, and it appears that Microsoft (which is strong on the desktop but weak on the server) wants to wage this battle (also) in the gaming field, so Java must be there. Lucky for Sun, the gaming industry is not so light on money either.

Talk of “killer apps” is dangerous. Did Sun wait for a killer desktop app before developing Swing?
The guys at Sun better find a business model for games pretty soon, or else be convinced that they must show up for that battle if they don’t want to lose the war.

Yes. It’s that serious.

#42

They’ve already lost the console war for the foreseeable future. Fortunately .net isn’t yet mature enough to attract serious game developers yet either and probably won’t be for the next gen as it’s quite some way behind the latest Java VM. Bottom line is: I can’t write games for ANY consoles, now, or tomorrow. But I could defect to some other traditional language and get my stuff on XBox Live and be relatively rich. I’ve already been offered a porting service to get my games over on XBox but that so totally defeats the purpose of Java I’ve resisted.

Cas :slight_smile:

#43

I can’t agree more. Sun can benefit so much more with this kind of alliance. If you think about the stronghold you see with Windows/Intel processor, then think about Project Looking Glass/Cell Processor.

Maybe Chris and Jeff need to let Pron face the Generals at Sun and make the appeal? :stuck_out_tongue:

#44

sun should finally once take a risk and get to the industry when new generation consloes are still not so popular so sun will have time to make them available for java and like pron said join to other companies like ibm .

I think that the problem of sun are not programmers who probably would like to make jvm for ps3/xbox but that management who only thinks about revenus…
Do you remember how java get into computer industry , netscape bought a license, it was a risk sun in that time do not know if users will be intrested with java or not, if all spent money will back from revenus etc. That technology in 1995 was not even so impressive, java in that time was very slow etc . After a couple of years it was good enough t o make it a standard. SUN ifor a huge company i think that it will not be a problem to find some $ to make java for consoles. Like in that times when java has appeared for pc the same risk must be made and enable it for consoles. JAVA MUST REBORN… that management stuff should ask themselve why such companies earlier related to buisness market has now do everything to promote themselve in game industry , like for example Microsoft. BECOUSE MICROSOFT KNOW THAT WILL NOT EARN MORE MONEY on buisness due to strong competition and LIMITED amount of companies etc. Consoles users are milions and probably the whole familis will play games (many of you gamers have your own children who will probably gamers will be too), game market is still expanding every year , buisness market is more chermetic, the speed of buisness progress is much slower even limited , but new gamers appear every year especialy in countries like china where lots of people plan to buy some modern platform and they will choose console so how long we will wait for sun management…

#45

You’re right kylix, but Sun can choose to make money on businesses only. But they’re wrong if they think they can do it without entering the games industry. Why? because Microsoft is there. Perhaps not completely there with .NET as Cas said, but they’re sure as hell going there. Ignoring fierce competition like Microsoft is a BIG mistake. Before .NET, Sun could have gone merilly on their way making money off B2B, but now Microsoft is calling the shots. That’s the way they work.

My pervious job was as CTO for an organization making software for the defense industry. Most of our software was in Java, and when we had to make a technology choice for a large weapon system control software, after speaking with Sun’s Gregg Bollela, I chose their new RTSJ implementation (that’s real-time java). Why? Because the system must be maintainable for at least ten years, and I knew Java was here to stay. I also liked Java’s backwards compatibility which was a nice change from Microsoft which seems to switch technologies every 5 years or so.

Now I’m when in the process of starting my own company (that is not going to write games exactly but some other entertainment software), I was sure I was going to choose Java again.

When I saw that Sun, quite incredibly, not only does not charge head-on into the exploding game industry, but on the contrary, seems to ignore it altogether, waiting for a “killer-app”, an alarm went off in my head. If Java is not to be part of one of the most important segments of the software industry, maybe it’s not here to stay? I’m sure this is not Sun’s and IBM’s intention, but that just might happen.

So now is the time. While .NET is not quite there yet.

#46

I wouldn’t exactly say Sun is ignoring the games industry entirely. They are showing Darkstar at the GDC in March. The problem is that they are only seriously targeting the server side of the equation.

However, there are some reasons that might make Java not so good on consoles. For a full blown AAA title, Java just might not cut it. A big part of that might infact be memory usage (not performance). The consoles are very resource constrained and that’s not an area that JSE functions well in compared to C/C++. HOWEVER - there are efforts by both Microsoft and Nintendo to capture the growing casual and Indie games market. Those games require much less memory (as a general rule) and could easily fit within the constraints of a modern console, without having to re-jig them much or the VM (other then the obvious HW differences in console architecture). I am not sure what Sony’s view on the casual market is, but this is an area where Java could fit very nicely on any current or next generation console.

Casual/Indy style games that can run UNCHANGED on consoles, PC’s, Linux or Mac’s - that would be huge. Right now, there are big porting efforts going on to bring these kind of games to XBox Live. That porting effort wouldn’t be necessary in the case of Java if the VM was there, and that would make Java very attractive.

#47

Microsoft paid-off the best university in Canada for Computer Science and Computer Engineering and got them to stop teaching Java to undergrads and switch to C#.

http://www.wired.com/news/school/0,54601-0.html

#48

I agree with pron and kylix for most parts of their argumentation.

The influence of games on other business often is underestemated.

Take the OS batlles for example: There were/are many, which could/can compete with those from Microsoft. I remember, that at the time of OS/2 at lot of school friends and I tested it. We liked it more than windows, BUT although a lot of actual games ran on OS/2, the newer ones didn’t. As a result we switched back windows. Now say 2/3 of our parents weren’t into computers that time, but are using it for office stuff. Now, why did they see MS Office, because their kids used MS Windows to play games.

At my University it was almost the same: Since two years now, Microsoft sponsors pratical courses on condition that they programming language is C#. I don’t need to mention, that Java was used before…

IMHO this is a serious issue :’(

For games MS also had a clever strategy, because in their presentations they have promoted C# for Gaming Tools. At this parts game developers usually don’t fear that much about performance. As a lot have tried it and are getting used to a more modern programming language than C++. Further they notice that the performance isn’t bad as expected and they begin substituting non-cirtical parts of their engine… guess what’s coming next…

#49

This is all very unsettling.

I think we can now clearly see why Sun CANNOT give up on Java gaming now. Java may seem to be doing very well at the moment, but it’s really fighting for its life, and cannot afford to miss reaching out to new industries.

The way to convince Sun is this: IT managers with long-term thinking would want to know this: “How does Sun intend to carry on its competition with Microsoft?”, because the IT people don’t just want to choose the best technology now, but one that will be here in the next ten years, too. Now, if Sun could tell them, “Well, actually Sony adopted Java as its next game development environment for its consoles”, the IT people are going to be convinced that Java is here to stay because they know how big and how important the game industry is. So, Chris and Jeff, this is what you should tell them. Because, frankly, if Sun is not in the console market soon, even I’ll begin having my doubts regarding the future of Java.

Sony, on the other hand, certainly does (or should have) a strong interest in Java as well, because they’re also competing with Microsoft. The gamers don’t really care which company makes their console, they just want to play the best kick-ass games. The behavior of the market is controlled by both the consoly manufacturer and the game developers. The console with the best games makes the most money, and the game developers want to develop to the most popular console so they can make the most money. There’s really a magic circle here, where each party (the console maker or the game developer) can try to affect the other. For example, each side can force the other to lower its prices.
One strategy Microsoft can try to use in order to attract developers (and I’m not saying that this is what will attract them, but like I said, the console makers will try everything) is to introduce a “modern” software environment for developing games, with which “writing your game is a snatch”. Sony won’t have an answer to that unless it adopts Java. Here’s your interest.

All of us must understand, though, that Java (and .NET for that matter) won’t make it into mainstream games right away, because of various performance issues (and I’m referring to memory requirements as well). Just like Java was very slow and cumbersome on the desktop at first. With time, JVM technology will adapt to the console hardware, but in order to do so it must at least be there NOW.

Tell that to the Sun executives.

#50

maybe sun should promote java as scripting language for games like lua etc, for example game company from Poland - Techland has used java as scrpting language in Chrome and Xpand Rally ,maybe sun should go that way, also as language for making tools is a good idea, but again that Techland has to make java virtual machine on its own… becouse sun has not even thought about selling license and make jvm for such use in games…

i think that management staff in sun thinks that they are in game industry - cell phones game industry, so they do not should bother another types of game industry like consoles etc. But it is wrong way. in future i think games in cell phones will move to native programs for one of the best system symbian which today is suported of the majority of phone vendors. Native games will be faster and more safe becouse of certification so java will not be so reqired for solving unnecesered acces to user system data etc. Java will be only in low end and medium devices but future will be to that high-end. slowly java will loose its position so TODAY sun should reserve some place of future market which are consoles.

#51

Personally, I don’t think that a JVM on the PS3 is needed, though it would be great to have one. I doubt that C# will make it on the XBOX 360, so there is no real hurry. But this will probably change in the next next-gen, so one for the PS/4 is a must. (I know talking about the PS4/4 before the PS/3 is shipped sounds odd ::slight_smile: ).
On the other hand, Microsoft is creating a lot of developer tools and game companies do also. Some are already written in C# (see trinigy for example) and a lot more will be in the very near future. So the transition for the X-Box 720 (fictive name) will be very smooth.
Sony is also trying to get a lot of standards (e.g. COLLADA), libraries (threading,… ) and tools. IMHO this is the point were Java has to be promoted! I don’t expect a java game on a PS before a bunch of delevoper tools is released. But of course SONY should be interested in getting experience for a VM on a console, I bet Microsoft already tries some stuff. With nothing more high level then C++ on a PS4 and the X-BOX # (yet another fictive name :wink: ) they may lose another markter segment like the mobile music market - oh how they must suffer from the I-POD, which has almost completely replaced the WALKMAN :-X

#52

Please don’t make the mistake of thinking that AAA means 101% performance and hand-crafted shader code. AAA refers to the marketing budget of the title, not the development budget nor anything to do with polycounts. Java’s been technically able to compete with all the other AAA titles for a couple of years now … except that no-one is going to put AAA marketing money behind a title that isn’t available on a console as well.

Cas :slight_smile:

#53

(BTW, with regard to C#, RealityEngine from Artificial Studios, one of the best next-gen engines around, is offering C# as its scripting language - http://artificialstudios.com/index.php)

So we all agree it’s not too late yet, and that Java has some nice opportunities now.

But I can certainly understand Sun’s concerns about entering uncharted waters, so here is my proposition:

Sun,IBM and Sony will agree to the following:

  1. IBM will develop a JVM for the PlayStation based on their J9 JVM with some support for sony.
    IBM will do this because they can make money on a JVM for CELL on their servers. The Java gaming community will benefit by having its PS games run on J9 which is the cutting-edge JVM right now - If I had a heavy duty game I’d want it to run on J9. God that JVM is FAST. Sony will do it because it won’t have to put in much money, and maybe they’ll see some good come out of it in the future.

  2. Sun, in return, will guarantee its support for Java gaming technologies by putting more money into game development tools as well as into promoting and developing JOGL, JOAL etc. Sun can also provide a JOGL based UI that I see is so needed. Of course, Sun will also license/sell sony its game server for use for PS games. This way, Sun will continue concentrating on development tools and B2B services. Let’s say Sun will guarantee an additional $3M annually that will go into game technologies (it can add this amount to its $800M losses without even noticing).

If at some point in the future Sun sees it can make more money out of games, it can develop/acquire game engine technologies.

I’m sure there are some political problems here with this Sun/IBM collaboration, but if the two Java leaders can’t work something out, then Java really is in serious trouble.

I think this is a low-risk offer that big companies like.
Now how does that sound?
Chris, Jeff, will you take this upstairs?

#54

Being realistic pron you know they won’t “take it upstairs”, but Hell man, that’s a plan! :thumbsup:

#55

I think we have to hope that Jeff’s Darkstar project brings in a not too shabby amount of cash. Otherwise I think we are going to continue to be a very low priority.

#56

I ought it was famous for there mathematical studies didn’t know about computer science. anyways this year adleast I’ve seen there assignments and there (still?) in java.

WoW on console yet? Aoe? etc?

#57

Upstairs where? The frist part of your idea is a mjor investment by IBM.

Neither of us work for IBM. here’s MY proposal, you get that comittment from IBM and maybe we can make some waves here…

P.S. Tehrs no need for Chris or I to really “take anything upstairs”. Scott reads every email he recieves…

#58

A very astute and realistic observation.

yes, Project Darkstar being a raging financial succes is probably our best hope for gettign Sun to invest further on a corporate level in the games industry.

#59

I’ve been thinking: what about nintendo?

#60

Alright.
I will send an email to Mr. McNealy and try to find someone at IBM we can talk to.
Might take a week or two, though.