this post is just related to the subject, did not read all this topic, but :
YES, I really dislike Eclipse, I tried it a long time ago, and I did not try it again since that times , may be 5 years ago.
I think I had a bad experience with it, maybe i should give it another try …
Oh I’ve had bad experiences with just about everything 
if updating an IDE is not encouraged by it’s easyness, what’s the point of issueing new releases at all? 
But to be honest - NetBeans 6 releases are (alpha) milestone releases, so it’s really my own fault using them and expecting fluffy user experience…
lol, well here’s how I see it; you will rarely get significant speed increases within the same version, code completion is rarely going to change, and any new technology is not part of your project using old technology. If it becomes part of your project then set up for it, however Eclipse does not demand that you use one installation, it is built in a way that allows multiple configurations.
I have been caught out with incompatible add-ons too, but even Visual Studio has its issues - and how often do you really need to change? If you really do need to constantly upgrade your IDE I’ll put money on there being a fault in your development process. If you’re taking programming as a hobby then get good at using what you’ve got.
I mean there are still people using Visual Studio 6.0, Windows 2000, Office 98, Quark 4, and so on. When my dad built his studio he had the latest cubase with up to date hardware and the guy he partnered with had some old fashion mixer board + BBC tapes with Cubase (ver 1) on an Atari sequencing some simple synths. He was well acquainted with it and there was never any reason to upgrade; sure he didn’t have the logical drum editing mode introduced in 1993, but he had learned to fully utilize it.
I’m not saying to stay in the dark ages, or regurgitating the “if it’s not broke don’t fix it” cliché, but if it ain’t broke then why fix it?
personnaly i Use JCreator, wich is “lite”, have code completion, code collapsing, and auto help on clicking a classe name or so, and start in about 2 seconds.
I dont know what more i could expect to have ?
NB: “notepad++” is also cool tool for people who dont know it, give it a try, works with almost all language : VB,C,C++,JavaScript,XML,HTML,Java,sh,… (about 25 languages) but it is more to edit one file than to make a project, but it have code completion and collapse, and syntax higlight for all those languages.
NB2: I really dislike IBM software… quality==0
Oh, I used to like JCreator for the same reasons, but I don’t remember it having the automatic class compilation, error tracking / correction, automatic imports and most of all (for me) the Together plugin (which knocks the socks off of any competition). And doesn’t the “lite” version lack code completion?
How long it takes to load up is a non issue really, I mean how many times are you going to do that and how much does it really matter?
I do like how JCreator launches the JavaDoc internally and it operates fast. Having said that try Eclipse without its automatic compilation and other features and you will probably find it is actually much faster. EDIT: I don’t mean faster than JCreator
I’m currently using ConText and before that used EditPlus; Notepad++ actually appears to be a stronger app! Installed
Last time I tried JCreator it’s “code completion” was a braindead simple “have I seen the start of this word anywhere in the same file?” method. Ie. code completion doesn’t work the first time you do “JPan<ctrl+space”, but the second time it’ll pick up that it’s seen “JPanel” elsewhere in the file.
It’s crude and kind of works for variable names, but it’s no where near proper code completion such as Eclipse’s. And it still doesn’t have a debugger (no, a command line prompt into the JDK debugger does not count). Basically it’s a text editor trying to pretend it’s something it’s not.
It’s still a great IDE for newbies though, since it’s largely unintrusive and doesn’t require you to faff around with fancy project settings just to get something to compile and run.
Huh? I’m sure I used debugging with JCreator, and I for sure did not pay for the pro version - yet I’m sure I did have the pro version. I’m guessing it must have come with a magazine
[quote]And it still doesn’t have a debugger (no, a command line prompt into the JDK debugger does not count). Basically it’s a text editor trying to pretend it’s something it’s not.
It’s still a great IDE for newbies though, since it’s largely unintrusive and doesn’t require you to faff around with fancy project settings just to get something to compile and run.
[/quote]
[quote]… it having the automatic class compilation, error tracking / correction, automatic imports and most of all (for me) the Together plugin …
[/quote]
[quote]…It’s still a great IDE for newbies though…
[/quote]
Well, “it is for newbies?!”, what i think, is a bit different : newbies really requiere code completion, auto-correction, as if they have someone near to them to help…, but if you are not a newbie you will dont need those things…at least it will only help in few case.
auto-error correction… woaou, great, may be eclipse will soon propose auto programming making , the quality of software will then became as great as those done by IBM & MS, with about 50% of code auto-generated and under control.
you may try Visual basic… you will love it.
I have not the commercial version of JCreator, I will buy it, but what i know is code completion works as in MS visual studio for the commercial version.
I think it is not good when a software try to do all that it is possible to do.
but ok, finally, i will give eclipse another try…
hmm, i really have to disagree with you with your statement that things like codecompletion and stuff are for newbies. It isnt in there for nothing, it allows you to work faster and more efficient.
No, newbies require the absolute minimum amount of interference between them and the compiler, and the runtime. Which is what JCreator provides. They need to do things by hand, manually - such as setting up compiler flags and explicitly typing everything out. Once once they’ve done that for a decent amount of time is it a good idea to move up to something more advanced like Eclipse which can automate some of the more common operations.
Starting with something simple and unintrusive gives newbies a better grasp of the low level goings on, and what exactly is required. Otherwise they’ll end up treating the fancier features of Eclipse/etc. as magic without a proper understanding of what’s actually going on. And if/when those features go wrong or behave unexpectedly they won’t have a clue what to do because they don’t know how to do it manually.
lol, well its more of a reduction of keystrokes than anything. But I may have over stated the feature, it’s not quite total auto correction like a single button click, but it shows you which projects, packages and classes have errors, where they are and offers auto fix per error (with a choice when there are possibilities). The 1-button auto fix is secretly planned for release in the near future (j/k)
Well since you’re trying it here’s a few features to look out for and learn the hotkeys:
I think he was joking
I’m on both sides of the fence there; I agree with you completely that people need to be aware of compiler flags, but if anything a true newbie needs to learn to program and can worry about other stuff after. I mean they want to learn to program, and I instead show them X, Y and Z when I can instead teach them Z and have them aware of X and Y (if you know what I mean)
if your “program conception” is well done then you will only write few line of source code at once, you will only lose a little time without code completion. I dont use it, but, anyway, I agree that it is a cool stuff.
Nothing make me more happy than when i wrote undred line of source code and compil without errors and run it without problem.
I dislike making a code and than debug because i did not took any attention of what I did when I was writing it. just try to be “smarter” and auto-correction and code-completion wont help you anymore.
What about the realtime-compilation of your code. You never have to wait for it, you can Run your application 1 second after you made the last change.
When I see those java-tutorial-videos where programmers show what they do, and I see them waiting at least 10 seconds before they can view their changes, I think that’s one of the big timewasters. Further, seeing the errors underlined in runtime saves you from a few failing compilations.
Believe me, every once in a while, I get totally fed up with ‘bloated’ Eclipse, and look for an alternative, but every time I come back emptyhanded, and kinda fall in love again with Eclipse.
Hi riven,
I am just the “the devil’s lawyer” in french it means that i said the opposite of the discussion.
In that case, Eclipse eats RAM like there is no tomorrow, and the compiler sometimes makes the weirdest mistakes.
Hm… that’s about it, nothing else that really bothers me.
Well it does require that you have at least 256MB or RAM (or was that due to the Together plugin); but once you’ve got a decent amount of RAM it’s not a problem.
And how does Eclipse manage to compile so quickly? I’m guessing it only saves the changes to the byte code!
I think he ment newbies need them the most, not that others wouldn’t need them.
either way I disagree, newbies don’t benefit from code completion that much, the first 1/2 year you should make them dwell on the javadocs beyond syntax errors a lot of problems arise from simply not reading the javadocs well.there goal is to learn the language not to write code as quickly as possible.
hmm I wouldn’t know about memory, all my computers that I work with have 2 GB and up.
oh and if your running eclipse under ubuntu, change the jvm to one of sun’s (needs to be done in the in some file, --update-alternatives doesn’t ‘simply’ work.)
I use Eclipse, and it usually causes me to shout the “C” word a few times each hour - usually because the autocomplete is a pain in the arse. Someone should plonk the developers down in front of a copy of Visual Studio and show them how it’s done
Having said that, Eclipse is the best of the bunch. A not very good bunch - why are Java IDEs so poor?
I’ve just tried JCreator, and as an editor it’s really nice - although it’s a bit thick at picking up new changes in other files. The uninstaller was ran after I found a bug where the debugger would file lock the project’s jar file; causing me to shut down and restart each time.
Perhaps Eclipse is trying to be all things to all men. I keep meaning to try one of these programmer’s editor applications and hook it up to javac, jar and proguard, and see if I can get the best of all worlds…
Any recommendations for such a beast? Preferably native code though - Java IDEs etc eat up too much memory and are generally too slow for my liking.
well configured, Jcreator is really nice and simple to use. I promess
just cut your big project into multiple JCreator projects and put all your JCreator projects into a single workspace.
In project propertie set the javadoc you need to use (java + librarie you used) in the editor, and the requiered library (your other project path or jar).
when you have a change to make in your big project just change the JCreator project wich is impacted, compil than launch the main class of your big project.
If you want to create a project from an existing folder with many different package, just use “refresh from local” on the jcreator project after having copied all source files folder in a new jcreator project source directory.
NB: proguard is an excellent software, in my case i prefer using it in command line mode (for example: something like makerelease.bat for window) rather than with the GUI, it is much faster , so I can create a compacted released jar by a simple double ciick. Finally, making a change in a project and export a final release only requiere three step, modifing files, compile projects impacted, and finaly if you want to make a release click makerekease.bat that will compact and if needed join all your jar in a single one.
sorry… :-X I love JCreator