Another nail in the coffin

[princec]

Michael says:
hahahahaha
Michael says:
HAHAHAHHAHAHAHA
Caspian says:
?
Michael says:
someone sent the retro gaming radio guy a link to puppy tron
Michael says:
and know what he said?
Caspian says:
“its shit”
Michael says:
“Tell me when they release an EXE version. I don’t play Java games”
Caspian says:
?
Caspian says:
it is an exe
Michael says:
never used to be
Michael says:
this was when it was first released
Michael says:
and thus there you go
Michael says:
if I wrote it
Michael says:
in blitzmax
Caspian says:
he’s a bit of a
Michael says:
it would have gotten 10x the exposure
Michael says:
why’s that?
Michael says:
I don’t blame him for not running java shit
Michael says:
loading in the vm etc feels sluggish

You can yell till you’re blue in the face but for every one you convert to the cause there’ll be another 99 to take his place.

Cas

[kevglass]

So build EXEs.

Kev

[cfmdobbie]

That’s the conclusion, isn’t it?

If sucessful distribution to your average end-user requires an EXE, take the extra time tweaking JET to get it working.

[kevglass]

If its only the EXE customers are worried about (I expect the slow startup time critisism declines with the size of the game) then one of the many Java EXE Wrapper (JSmooth my fave! :)) would do the job also.

Kev

[DQuinlan]

[quote]If its only the EXE customers are worried about (I expect the slow startup time critisism declines with the size of the game) then one of the many Java EXE Wrapper (JSmooth my fave! :)) would do the job also.

Kev
[/quote]
or drag out and dust off your copy of VC6 and twiddle with java.c and java_md.c to make your own customized launcher. I did this recently, I’m quite happy with the result, managed to get the entire JRE that i need to run my app down to about 20 megs (bin & lib directorys) . If i switch from JOGL to LWJGL and knock off the AWT stuff then it would probably go down further. Alien Flux and Princec’s couple of posts on the subject gave me the idea to do it so its hardly original

D.

[DQuinlan]

actually forgot to mention, Re-zipped RT.jar with maximal compression to get the size down to the above, so my startup time is now horrendous …

D.

[mthornton]

You can’t reason with prejudice.

[20thCenturyBoy]

You think we’ve got it bad, pity the poor PyGame programmers.

Actually, no, Python is cooler than Java right now. :o

[zparticle]

I don’t want to start another war so everyone please understand I’m simply asking these questions because I’m interested in Cas’s responses. I am not trying to convert anyone. Since I just bought a Mac I’m now working with BlitzMax on it and BlitPlus on Windows. I still do Java every day for my job but very rarely at home any more.

Cas:

1> Do you have any experience with the BlitzXXX languages? (maybe with the Amiga?)

2> Do you think you have to use one or the other? If so why do you feel you can’t use both?

3> Perhaps using Blitz for smaller faster projects and Java for the more intricate stuff would be a good choice, what do you think?

4> Looking at BlitzMax it appears to be exactly what you were looking for with Java and LWJGL. Cross platform (Windows and Linux versions are in beta), OO, OGL, ect. What advantages do you see on either side, if any, as far as the languages go?

5> Would it be worth trying to port one of your LWJGL games to Max to see if a change might be warranted? It seems like a port would be a snap but I haven’t seen your code.

6> Is sticking with Java simply a personal goal/ego thing? If so, that doesn’t make a lot of business sence.

[oNyx]

[quote]actually forgot to mention, Re-zipped RT.jar with maximal compression to get the size down to the above, so my startup time is now horrendous …

D.
[/quote]
Bad idea… actually

Use stored jars and a proper installer with lzma compression eg NSIS. Doing so will produce a smaller installer.

[dsellars]

zparticle:

This is not intended as a flame in any way at all, I’m just curious.

When you mentioned Blitz 3D before (October of so was it?) http://www.java-gaming.org/cgi-bin/JGNetForums/YaBB.cgi?board=Offtopic;action=display;num=1100272671;start=30#30

I, like most people I think, went off and had a look at the demo version for it. While I think it was very impressive, I found it pretty arkward and ugly to use.

You’ve obvously had time to play with it now and also tried BlitzMax, how are you finding it? is BlitzMax any better (as in more pleasant) than Blitz3D?

Regards,
Dan.

[zingbat]

Think big. Java is realy more apropriate to make games like this:

If you go for small size games then mobile market is a will be much more receptive.

[princec]

1> Do you have any experience with the BlitzXXX languages? (maybe with the Amiga?)

No, I used AMOS on the Amiga. Blitz looks awesome. It also shows up a glaring hole in the Java product lineup. I’ve been hassling Chris to let me sell a product based on my mini-VM and LWJGL for ages now but I don’t get any response. Maybe my mail gets spam filtered?

2> Do you think you have to use one or the other? If so why do you feel you can’t use both?

Can’t see the point of using both. Blitz does everything. Anything Blitz doesn’t do you can simply code an extension module.

3> Perhaps using Blitz for smaller faster projects and Java for the more intricate stuff would be a good choice, what do you think?

Blitz is pretty capable of doing even the bigger stuff too I think. Besides, why shouldn’t Java be capable of doing the little projects?

4> Looking at BlitzMax it appears to be exactly what you were looking for with Java and LWJGL. Cross platform (Windows and Linux versions are in beta), OO, OGL, ect. What advantages do you see on either side, if any, as far as the languages go?

Java is quite considerably faster in raw performance terms. What’s more it’s natively supported by OSX. And finally, the reason I stick with Java is because I know all of its foibles and quirks. I’d have to start again from scratch with Blitz.

5> Would it be worth trying to port one of your LWJGL games to Max to see if a change might be warranted? It seems like a port would be a snap but I haven’t seen your code.

If anyone wants to try… go ahead I’d rather spend the time writing a few more little mini-games.

6> Is sticking with Java simply a personal goal/ego thing? If so, that doesn’t make a lot of business sence.

Java’s almost fine. The only thing missing from the equation is a license to use it as I need to use it. I develop code in Java as fast as anyone else might do it in Blitz, because I’ve developed a library of tools & wotsits to help me. It’s making business sense to stick with it for now because I’ve got such a big foundation upon which to write more games: both code and experience. I’ve also got a bit of sneaky technology (the mini VM) and the Mac market.

Cas

[zparticle]

[quote]When you mentioned Blitz 3D before (October of so was it?) http://www.java-gaming.org/cgi-bin/JGNetForums/YaBB.cgi?board=Offtopic;action=display;num=1100272671;start=30#30

I, like most people I think, went off and had a look at the demo version for it. While I think it was very impressive, I found it pretty arkward and ugly to use.

You’ve obvously had time to play with it now and also tried BlitzMax, how are you finding it? is BlitzMax any better (as in more pleasant) than Blitz3D?

Regards,
Dan.
[/quote]
I was (and still am) using BlitzPlus, I don’t have any experience with Blitz3D. I can tell you that B+ has it’s limitations, however I have found that I am able to get around them fairly easily. Most of these fall under the “I’m still thinking in Java” category. Once you stop doing that you usually find a solution.

B+ is kind of like Basic with structs and a nice set of 2D graphics commands.

BMax has me excited because it gets me closer to my Java roots with a somewhat easier/more obvious to use (this is subjective) language set.

BlitzMax is BASIC…but with a few twists, including:

Function pointers
Fully dynamic arrays
Inheritance and polymorphism
‘By reference’ function parameters
Byte, Short, Int, Long, Float and Double numeric data types
Array and string slicing
Flexible ‘collection’ system for dealing with linked lists etc
Low level pointer handling
UTF16 strings
The ability to ‘Incbin’ binary data and access it as easily as if it were a regular file
External language support for interfacing with C/C++/ObjectiveC or assembly code

BMax is fully geared toward OGL programming, I assume they did that to get the cross platform ability. I have a lot to learn before I can make any solid statements about it. However having had success with B+ I’m very confident that BMax will make me very happy.

bglCreateContext 640,480

While Not KeyHit( KEY_ESCAPE )

  glClear GL_COLOR_BUFFER_BIT

  glBegin GL_TRIANGLES
  glVertex2i 0,1
  glVertex2i 1,-1
  glVertex2i -1,-1
  glEnd

  bglSwapBuffers

Wend

That is a complete OGL app in BMax.

[zparticle]

[quote]Think big. Java is realy more apropriate to make games like this:

If you go for small size games then mobile market is a will be much more receptive.
[/quote]
That is a beautiful screen shot!

[princec]

I can’t resist!

import org.lwjgl.input.Keyboard.*;
import org.lwjgl.opengl.GL11.*;
class App {
public static void main(String[] args) {
Display.create();
while (!isKeyDown(KEY_ESCAPE)) {
glClear(GL_COLOR_BUFFER_BIT);
glBegin(GL_TRIANGLES);
glVertex2i(0,1);
glVertex2i(1,-1);
glVertex2i(-1,-1);
glEnd();
Display.update(); 
}
Display.destroy();
}
}

That’s the equivalent in Java these days

Cas

[zparticle]

Sweet!

[Raghar]

and in my mod of JOGL somewhat around a year ago.

gl1.clear(GL.COLOR_BUFFER_BIT);
gl1.begin(GL.TRIANGLES);
gl1.vertex(0, -1);
gl1.vertex(-1, 0);
gl1.vertex(1, 1);
gl1.end();

I suspect it could be with static import this way.

clear(COLOR_BUFFER_BIT); // or clear(GL.COLOR_BUFFER_BIT);
begin(TRIANGLES);
vertex(0, -1);
vertex(-1, 0);
vertex(1, 1);
end();

Thought I’m thinking vertex instead of vertexI might be sometimes confusing.
look at vertex(a[1], b[1], c[1]);
Is “a” int or double? With vertexI it would be clear imediately.
It has another disadvantage in if you’d use vertex3I(1,2) compiler would give you a error message. If you’d use vertex(1, 2) it would be compilled without problem.

[tom]

and in my mod of JOGL somewhat around a year ago.

gl1.clear(GL.COLOR_BUFFER_BIT);
gl1.begin(GL.TRIANGLES);
gl1.vertex(0, -1);
gl1.vertex(-1, 0);
gl1.vertex(1, 1);
gl1.end();

I suspect it could be with static import this way.

clear(COLOR_BUFFER_BIT); // or clear(GL.COLOR_BUFFER_BIT);
begin(TRIANGLES);
vertex(0, -1);
vertex(-1, 0);
vertex(1, 1);
end();

Thought I’m thinking vertex instead of vertexI might be sometimes confusing.
look at vertex(a[1], b[1], c[1]);
Is “a” int or double? With vertexI it would be clear imediately.
It has another disadvantage in if you’d use vertex3I(1,2) compiler would give you a error message. If you’d use vertex(1, 2) it would be compilled without problem.

That is not a complete application. Where is the main, the window setup, the input handling etc?