3D Game development laptop - any advice?

Hi,

I am hoping to soon purchase a laptop well suited for creating 3d games. My current laptop has a hopeless 3d card with zero linux support and I am wishing to correct this mistake.

I think IBM will be the way to go as it’s a name brand so parts are available and Linux is supported.

The one I am looking at is the R50p listed here: http://www-132.ibm.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=8672722&storeId=1&langId=-1&categoryId=2302835&dualCurrId=73&catalogId=-840

It has the
ATI Mobility FIREGL T2 3D card with 128 MB of dedicated RAM (which is unlike most laptops that share the video ram).

While it’s pricy, it seems that the video card is about as good as you get on a laptop.

Does anyone have any advice with regard to 3D on laptops, IBM and ATI’s linux compatability?

Thanks,

Will.

Come on go with one of these, you know you want to :slight_smile:

Don’t, whatever you do, get an ATI chipset to develop on. Always, always, always buy Nvidia. I can’t tell you how much time (and therefore money) I’ve wasted with ATI.

I’ve just bought a Dell 5150 for my games dev (1GB RAM, HT 3.2GHz, Nvidia) and it’s absolutely excellent. The RAM was a cunning move - seems that 1GB is about right these days with Eclipse and so on :confused:

Cas :slight_smile:

For linux, you need an ABSOLUTE MINIMUM of 512Mb RAM or you will spend half your life cursing. X-windows, Mozilla, OpenOffice etc are huge memory hogs, to say nothing of your IDE and your own java apps. It seems most linux apps also still have serious memory leaks - and since laptops tend to be rebooted much less frequently than desktops (because you usually suspend instead) this becomes a much bigger issue.

(or you can just stick to using one application at a time ;)). Linux distros tend to have very very bad virtual-memory management…it’s easy to install a distro and end up with it swapping every app to disk “pre-emptively” so that if you leave your laptop for half an hour EVERYTHING is swapped to disk and it takes literally 5 minutes waiting before you can type - everything has to be pulled out from disk one-by-one :(.

Dell + nVidia laptops have historically had appallingly bad support from the two manufacturers. However, Dell’s laptops usually have the best value-for-money hardware (not as good hardware as IBM, and to a lesser extent Toshiba, but considerably cheaper!). Note that Dell make an absolute fortune on selling you minor spec upgrades - e.g. they used to make most of their profit on the RAM they sold for your laptop. Instead of buying a laptop with 512Mb RAM, you could buy the same one with the 256 option, and order 1Gb Dell laptop RAM for that laptop from crucial.com AND STILL SAVE $50! So look at the prices of all the components carefully - some are good, but most are a ripoff (they know customers will expect to be getting a discount for buying it all in one go, and they use this to rip them off).

For the graphics, note that X-windows has traditionally never supported the GeforceXGo (laptop versions of the GF cards) - although they may finally have fixed this within the last 6-9 months since I last checked. So you are stuck with nvidia’s drivers. And, unfrotunately, nvidia has had historically very bad support - like a 3-year-old “official” known-bug that means you cannot suspend-to-disk in X-windows - the nvidia driver will crash linux either then or at resume. HOWEVER in the last 18 months their support for linux has become a LOT better, so although you iwll probably hear many horror stories from nvidia laptop owners probably most of it is now invalid - given how much things have improved in their whole attitude to linux, I would probably get anothe G4Go quite happily (although I would then go psycho if I found that the same kind of critical bugs were knowingly not being fixed! ;)).

Finally, a note about upgradability: nv has recently announced a new format for laptop grapihcs cards that will enable you to upgrade them! The idea is it’s like a “mini PCI”, a small form factor where you can just go out and buy the next GF when it comes out and upgrade your laptop. Obviously a great idea for them and us - they get to sell many more cards (laptops are one of the few large markets they haven’t yet fully exploited), and we get some future proofing. If you can wait 6-12 months, it would be worth checking how soon those laptops are coming to market.

I got my laptop about 3 years ago, with a GF2 in it. I was specifically looking for a system where I could do games dev. OK, so it has a measly 16 Mb Ram on the graphics card - but it has vertex shaders etc, which means it’s still capable of doing all the major stuff for the vast majority of games. From this perspective, assuming you get the non-upgradable card, I believe that performance is almost irrelevant to you - it’s features that matter. You don’t care that you can only do 60 fps in 18 months time on a top game, what you care about is that you can still display all the different features of the game (i.e. how bitter would you feel nowadays to have a GF1 laptop, where you can’t view any shader-effects at all! :().

I don’t know if this helps but a friend of mine has a sony vaio with the onyx black screen, it has a nvidia (Gforce 4 i think, with a P4 2.8 or so). He thinks its great and plays games like battle field vietnam with no probs. He’s had it a while so there will be much better ones available now as well.

I think the only problems with it are the low battery life and initial price (cost around £1500).

on the plus side the screen is very good.

Dan.

thanks for the advice :slight_smile:

blar, I agree that features are the most important with the 3d card, I don’t care if the latest game runs a little slowly so long as I can develop 3d stuff on it. My PC still has a GF2 which has done me proud so far.

I love the idea of upgradable video cards but I really can’t wait. If my current laptop had such a feature I’d be saving a lot of dough.

Dell’s prices are luring but I too am wary of their linux support. IBM is expensive, but apparently you do get what you pay for - and they actually advertise linux support which is appealing.

As for a Mac - I do want a mac, but I think I’d rather it as a desktop machine which I can test stuff on, and use for general stuff. For development I’d prefer linux with windows there for testing as well.

I agree that 512 is the absolute minimum, I had only 256 on this laptop and it wasn’t fun - fortunately I could upgrade that part.

Cas,

Please can you give me the summary of your ATI troubles? I’ve been an nVidia man too myself, but I was under the impression ATI have ironed out most of their problems and were now at least on par.

The big difference I see with the linked IBM laptop when compared to most others, including the Sony, is that it has 128MB of dedicated video ram, where as most others use shared ram. I assume that dedicated vram is faster for graphics, plus your normal ram doesn’t get eaten up.

It’s a real pain that there are so few options for high-end graphics on laptops, so I’m kind of hoping the IBM one will be ok.

Thanks again,

Will.

Personally, I’m on an ibook G4 800MHz 640MB RAM at the mo, and everything is super duper… except for the screen estate…that’s why I’m currently selling it in order to get the maxed-out 15-inch powerbook. :slight_smile:

Sony onyx blank screens do look very nice too!

[quote]thanks for the advice :slight_smile:

The big difference I see with the linked IBM laptop when compared to most others, including the Sony, is that it has 128MB of dedicated video ram, where as most others use shared ram. I assume that dedicated vram is faster for graphics, plus your normal ram doesn’t get eaten up.

It’s a real pain that there are so few options for high-end graphics on laptops, so I’m kind of hoping the IBM one will be ok.

Will.
[/quote]
Unless something’s changed since I last looked, those “shared RAM” cards are a rip-off. They aren’t “shared” - they’re just using the fact that the AGP bus is reasonably fast to store everything in system memory and streaming it to the card on-demand. It used to be that when Voodoo3’s had tonnes of texture ram on-board, and were very expensive, you’d see people selling cards with “4Mb-64Mb texture RAM” meaning “4Mb texture RAM, but we’ll stream up to 60Mb of textures in from main memory when we need them” which is nothing of the sort >:(.

Not exactly what a computer-game-dev wants, is it? You carefully optimize your texture loading to fit into the available memory, then find out that actually you didn’t have any of that memory, it was just vapour-ware, and there’s some graphics driver trying to do to you what you were doing yourself :).

Aren’t people saturating their AGP bandwidth as it is anyway, without any of this mucking about using it all up for other stuff? It’s not like most of that bandwidth is “going spare”, is it?

…but I’m not an OpenGL dev, so I’d appreciate an answer from someone who’s tried developing with the shared RAM cards…:wink:

The shared RAM cards are by and large awful. It’s hand-in-hand with other cheapass features like broken drivers and a dearth of functionality as well of course.

Nvidia nvidia nvidia. If you’re a developer, you buy Nvidia. It’s that simple. Unless you like random bluescreens, strange rendering artifacts even today, unsafe behaviour with ill-specified parameters, huge driver downloads, and inexplicable crashes and general system instability. YMMV, but I bet not by much :confused:

Trouble is you’ve got to have one handy to test on. Not that it helps because their drivers are always so buggy it’s a lottery that any particular bit of code will work between one set and the next.

Cas :slight_smile:

i have been nvidia guy myself too, but when i started to look for good laptop with nvidia card on it,they where all too expensive or other parts where crap,then i found siemens and bought it with ati 9000 mobile card and never had a problems on linux,windows. with linux all the distros i have tryed has worked(with some minor problems on gfx card but nothing that couldn’t fix).

i have always believed that ati has the worst gfx card and worst support at linux, but this has proven me wrong.

thank you everyone for your help.

Like starlord I found that better ATI’s cards are availiable in laptops than nVidia ones. I’m not saying either card is better - but the ATI cards available in laptops were newer and thus better than the nVidia ones, finding up to date nVidia cards in laptops was not easy.

I decided in the end to go with a high end consumer card rather than the pro ones (like FireGL) mainly because it’s games I’m writing, I’m not using CAD and only a little 3dsmax, plus these are the cards the target audiance are using anyway.

I went with Dell in the end - I didn’t plan to originally, but every single other make I looked at had some flaw - the IBM’s had the wrong cards, Toshiba’s, only an XGA screen etc. Unlike IBM, Dell lets you customise which is very nice when you want an extra 20GB space etc…

The ATI Radion 9600 pro was the best consumer 3D card I could find from any shop in Australia at a resonble price so that’s what I went with (there was a 9700 one - but it was a heavy brute with a short battery life - more a desktop replacement and I have got to carry this on my push bike so I want to be a little mobile).

And I have confirmed reports of this exact laptop/3d card working in linux so I am happy.

Cas - they conned me with the RAM, I got 256 free, but I too wanted 1GB, so it was better just to upgrade the bonus 256 to 512 than have to chuck out a 256 card later. Hopefully I don’t have as many ATI problems as you did.

Thanks again,

Will.

Dell dicked us around with the RAM too! I got my dad to order the laptop for me (for tax purposes) and when he surfed to the Dell site the special offer I was looking at just wasn’t there. He had to clear out all his cookies and delete his cache before he got to see it. Very, very sneaky.

Cas :slight_smile:

They are very cunning, that’s for sure. When I clicked on the model I wanted and was presented with a list of preconfigured options - I swear that two options were identicle (after you upgrade/downgrade some items to make them the same) except for the price.

But - they won my money by offering the most customisable machine and so they didn’t fall into the trap of the other contendors by having one feature which stopped me from getting it.

Will.

I’m very happy indeed with my new 5150. Apart from the keys being in the wrong place. Grr.

Cas :slight_smile:

will buy a Dell laptop the day can buy it WITHOUT windows XP

[quote]Come on go with one of these, you know you want to :slight_smile:
[/quote]
I just got the 17 inch one last week.
Trust me, this baby purrs…

Java runs like a dream and this thing can even meet Halo with little trouble (does get a bit hot though ;D)

Hi,

I’ve cancelled my Dell order and got myself a PowerBook (15" as it’s more suited to my habits).

Why?

To be honest I’m sick of trying to get hardware to work in linux. It’s fine for PC’s but laptops (esp. ones like from Dell) are such an uphill battle which detracts from my coding time. This way I get a top class unix-based OS without the hardware headaches of Linux (and they can still run linux). They also have the best video card of all laptops I looked at (which was a lot). I also assume the mac video card drivers are better supported than the linux ones which is important.

This is my first mac I’ve owned although I’ve played with a few.

I am bloody impressed. One fancy feature I love: The auto-adjustment of the brightness based on the ambient light (which of course you can disable) - very cool. And of course the OpenGL-driven GUI but that goes without saying. 10 years ago I never would have done this, and I doubt I ever would had they not made the increadably smart decision to use a unix base.

Now I must work on getting Odejava Mac support up to speed :wink:

Thanks for the suggestion mac users, it prompted me to check them out :slight_smile:

Will.

I was about to encourage you NOT to by an IBM laptop. I have a new one and it’s really dog slow for some reason and the screen broke after 3 weeks after which I lost my laptop for more than 2 months waiting for it to be repaired. Now the DVD player/CD burner doesn’t work anymore >:(

Anyway, I’m glad you made a good choice :slight_smile: If I’m going to buy a new laptop, I think I’ll get me a powerbook too.

I’ll only buy a Powerbook when they put two mouse buttons on the touchpad. Having an OS that supports two mouse buttons, then only having one button on the case is rather odd, to say the least. (Yes, I know you can plug in a USB mouse, but I’d like the machine to be fully featured while on the move as well.)

On the whole though, I have to say I’m very impressed by the Powerbooks I’ve played with.

hehehe I commented on that to the guy - he doesn’t think they ever will. It’s a bit funny having such a huge button…

But, it is fully featured - “Ctrl+Click” = “Right-Click”, just an extra button press.

Dunno how to get the middle mouse button though…

Will.