Sun and MS are friends again

Miscellaneous Topics
#21

[quote]though the wording of the articles I read make is sound like they are only required to ship their old 1.1 VM.
[/quote]
According to El reg in this article.

[quote]Microsoft Support for Java The companies have agreed that Microsoft may continue to provide product support for the Microsoft Java Virtual Machine that customers have deployed in Microsoft’s products.
[/quote]
No mention of shipping a real JVM, or of shipping their own, just supporting custmers who have already deployed. What actually ends up happening is anyones guess, although my own thoughts is that MS will start to ship their own VM again in the next SP and it will still be 1.1 and broken.

Endolf

#22

Just a guess, but… I suspect it means exactly what it says on the tin. MS are allowed to “support” their customers. If you read the details of the legal wranling at the time, you’d have noted that MS were actually forbidden from releasing bugfixes and patches to their JVM - or, at least, this was their claimed interpretation. I turned up at windows update and one day there was a JVM upgrade that could run apps the previous version couldn’t, and the next week it was gone; I was no longer allowed to get the upgrade if I didn’t have it already.

MS customers who had already decided to standardize on the MS JVM are screwed by something like this; being allowed to support them again (by continuing to release updates, develop the source, etc) is potentially a major boon for MS - although this is usually important to more service based companies (like integrators and consultancies).

But, as I said, that’s just a guess…

#23

Right, but I suspect (guess) that MS will support existing MS JVM users by shipping windows updates that update the existing MS JVM, which if you have XP, is there. What this means for windows 2003 or longhaul, is another issue, but I suspect that XP and bellow will be all MS JVMd again.

Like I said, it’s just my theory. The actuall wording doesn’t really say alot when it comes to the future deployment of it.

#24

Sun didn’t won, Sun settled. Settlement has to please both sides. What did MS get? Can you tell that from press releases?

Compliant MS VM will happen when hell freezes over. Java is EOL product at MS and they were given permission to support it (1.1) for some time more.

“It is mankind against MS” said Scot. That joke aside, huge patent money is a dangereous precedent (are you sure you aren’t breaking some?). And Sun taking Windows CPP under MS terms also. And undermining EC decission, process which Sun started and left Real/other media/european consumers in cold.
It all seems very nice from business perspective (2B$ is lots of money), but that is not Sun I liked.

Btw, I’m not the only one little dissapointed with Sun-MS deal , it seems that mr. Rich Green is not so satisfied with it either. I just hope it is just him taking all of it personal, and not some contract detail that we all don’t know about.

#25

Personal Pov Only Agin.

Got That?

I’m not going to speculate on Rich’s perspectives or motivations, particualrly as he’s no longer at Sun. Keep in mind though that he was hired to help fight MSFT and I’m sure he had higher hopes.

We all had higher hopes. Keep in mind that we won sweeping reforms for the industry under the Clinton administration. Then MSFT put a whole lot of money into the Bush campaign. Bush won, and the justice department just dropped enforcement instead impopsing a rediculously minor settlement.

I had to be there when Scott looked at the company heartbroken and announced “today there is officially no justice in the united states.”

I’m sorry but it was NOT his failing that let MSFT off the hook. It was the president the american people elected that did it. And there is nothing we could do about it.

Frankly, in the current climate, my opinion is that this is more then we could have hoped for:
(1) Sun gets something back in recognition of the grief MSFT caused.
(2) The web game folks arent left worrying if there will be ANY VM on Win32.
(3) This opens the door for other things, like the possability of MSFT shipping a modern VM. Before this agrement it was absolutely impossible.

So you can look at the glass as half empty if you wish, thats up to you. But the big battle was lost the day Bush was elected. Thats the reality of it.

#26

[quote]But the big battle was lost the day Bush was elected.
[/quote]
Hear hear!!

And:
http://atbash.net/blog/archives/000046.html

#27

But MS and Sun will be working together on the fields of Java and .NET
What will be our garantee that Java will survive?

Don’t get me wrong, on the surface it looks like a win to me, but working together with MS will mean two things:
-No open source Java… these hopes are now gone for good
-Microsoft has a way of embracing and extending technologies.

Let me expand on the last.
Sun and MS will be swapping patents and probably some tech around (like the single sign on technology).
What is to prevent Microsoft from withdrawing its technology and suing Sun into the ground the minute they have all they need?

#28

[quote]Let me expand on the last.
Sun and MS will be swapping patents and probably some tech around (like the single sign on technology).
What is to prevent Microsoft from withdrawing its technology and suing Sun into the ground the minute they have all they need?
[/quote]
Answer, the agreement. Thats what a patent swap is all about. We now have legal contractual rights to each others patents.

In the end, thats all a contract really is-- a legally enforceable agreemnt not to sue each other over specific thinsg laid out in that contract.

#29

[quote] It was the president the american people elected that did it.
[/quote]
Surely the president that the american Supreme Court elected?

The american people elected Gore…

#30

That part is OK when covered with that 700 mil. $. 900 +350 other is what is making me nervous.

Not so sure I like that one. MS Java is a dead end.

This is something that won’t happen. A little richer Java on .Net might, but I doubt that one too.

Nothing is ever lost, everything can be changed.

I still think this deal in this current climate is completely wrong. Bush did some damage, but there is mounting pressure on MS even because of that fiasco. They are seen as a huge theat virtually everywhere now (which wasn’t the case a few years back when only Scot shouted), and their throwing of billions to patch some problems is additionaly irritating people. Sun will go playing “man in the middle”, which won’t work in current polarised climate, and you will loose your identity in that process. I think a new pragmatic managment will find U-turning religion driven workforce and ESPECIALLY supportes extremely hard. I sure hope I’m wrong, because like(d) “Sun’s way”, but next 2 or 3 quarters be more revealing.

#31

Off Topic:

Here, every child in school learns about the Electoral College. Its true alot of Americans even make the mistake of thinking the President is elected by the people. But they are either ignorant, or didn’t pay attention that day in class.

Today, in this country, it seems absurd that elections could be rigged by ‘political bosses’ and organized crime. But that was the reality of elections in the US thru out the 19th and early 20th century. I don’t remember who said it but “with universal suffrage, a vote is only worth as much as your next meal”.

#32

Yes, but what happens to other institutes licencing Java for their own VM’s
My guess is that this technology swap only applies to Sun and Microsoft.

How could IBM, HP or BEA for example make use of this technology?

Anyways, I’m just hoping it’s my paranoia, because I really love Java and I’d rather not see it destroyed because Sun decided to get in bed with Microsoft.

#33

It looks like a win for MS… :expressionless:
Also it’s a signal that McNealy’s good line to opposite MS unfortunately didn’t work commercially speaking.
McNealy, who nicknamed himself Luke Skywalker a few times, how will he continue to battle the Death Star?

Has anybody an English article which covers what this German one does explain? http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/0,1518,294252,00.html
(Usually I avoid this magazine but this time IMO they hit the nail on the head.)

#34

Okay I Am Not A Lawyer And This Is Not Leagal Advice.

Clear on that? 'cause you are starting to get into questions which I would only trust a lawyers answer on if I was going to base a business decision on it.

Now, for their own VMs? It depends. I know IBM is licensee of Hotspot. Thus stuff that made it into the Hotspot source base I would assume they would have rights to use as a licensee. But if they want access to the MSFT patent library for their own independant development then they’ll have to make their own deals.

Now IBM has a huge patent library, I think even MSFT would be foolish to get into that fight with them.

BEA, if they want to develop their own VM, are gonna have to swollow the costs of development like everyone else, which might mean negotiating patent righst with MSFt or IBM or even Sun depending on what it is they want to do.

#35

[quote]Off Topic:

Here, every child in school learns about the Electoral College. Its true alot of Americans even make the mistake of thinking the President is elected by the people. But they are either ignorant, or didn’t pay attention that day in class.
[/quote]
Well thats not quite true. In many (but not all) states the electoral college representatives are legally required to vote in proportions directly based on the popular vote.

But if you want to talk numerbs its not really fair to say Gore won either (much as I’d like to.) The fact of the matter is that it was a statistical tie. The number of votes being argued at the end was WELL under the statistical margin of error.

But our system is not prepared for a tie. IMO Gore did the right thing by bowing out rather then put the country through whatw as shaping up to be a very very nasty fight. Unfortunately, since the right thing to do was bow out, we got the man who didn’t do the right thing :frowning: Given that the rest of Bush’s tenure one might argue was highly predictable.

#36

Couple of random comments…

First, Rich Green. He was mentioned briefly here - maybe some of you saw the Register article? Well, it very much looks like they got it wrong - he’d already decided to leave to join a start-up anyway:
http://business.newsforge.com/business/04/04/05/2138237.shtml?tid=111&tid=85

Here’s a good quick analysis of the higher level issues:

Another angle: The EU punished MS for $600m for being naughty in the EU. Microsoft settled for $700m for anti-trust crimes against Sun globally. Suck on that Eurocrats!

btw, the recent EU stuff didn’t actually do anything much to help Sun. Obviously there’ll be an appeals process anyway. For the stuff that relates to Sun it was more like “let other companies license the protocols” which is pretty much what the US guys said. It also seems Sun will have to pay little money in return. If you look at what Sun sued MS over in the first place, they got nearly everything they asked for - there was never much scope for Sun to be able to do serious “damage” to Microsoft, and anything serious would have taken 5-10 years.

And Scott very much clearly stated his intension to compete against Microsoft. With the license agreement, now makes it easier to replace Microsoft software with Sun software, and you bet he intends to do that (and ditto for Jonathan Schwartz). Sun and MS are certainly not teaming up in any way shape or form - this is more a result of that the current situation was overly negative for both companies. For example, Scott said he decided to initiate discussions about a year ago after customers asked him to.

#37

Nice sumamtion. Thanks Chris.

(Btw what are you up to these days? PM me I’d love an update.)

#38

[quote]Couple of random comments…

First, Rich Green. He was mentioned briefly here - maybe some of you saw the Register article? Well, it very much looks like they got it wrong - he’d already decided to leave to join a start-up anyway:
http://business.newsforge.com/business/04/04/05/2138237.shtml?tid=111&tid=85
[/quote]
No, really? The register got something wrong? Stop the presses…

The Register::Geeks as The Enquirer::Housewives

#39

Javalobby’s Rick Ross wrote an article about this topic yesterday, too. http://www.javalobby.org/nl/archive/jlnews_20040406o.html
(I know some of you here don’t like him but well, opionions are all ours. :slight_smile:
About Rich Green he writes a few sentences which make me very reflective.

Can’t help but I don’t trust this “deal”. I really hope it won’t have negative effects on Java.

{Edit} PS: There are some highly interesting articles from Java developers on the Javalobby forum about Rick’s article (agreeing and disagreeing ones). Of course, most of them don’t know what the bosses of SUN and others know. However in my experience the people tend to have a good “sense” for what is going on. Sixth sense maybe. :wink:

#40

Hmmm. Sometimes he comes across quite reasonable. And then he goes of on a “…I was never alone in that courtroom, you were right there with me the whole time…” tangent and leaves me cold.

:stuck_out_tongue: