Ah, so you’re saying java is too big because it’s not distributed enough, so instead of packaging the game with java (and thus upping the distribution of it) we should choose a very non-javaish way and compile it down into native excecutables.
So why not just use C++?
Let Sun worry about distribution of the JRE, that’s their problem. Our problem is developing proper games in less time. Partly that’s why we use Java, partly that’s why we use OpenGL. When the time comes that Webstart is a viable distribution method you’ll already be there, waiting.
Cas 
And just to chime in ONE MORE TIME I think that eveyone here is making a bigger deal over download size than there really is. Look, consumers will wait for the content, even very large files, if the content is desireable enough. Never minde the fact that you only have to go through the hulking JVM download once and incremental dl’s there on out.
Go check out WildTangent’s website. One fof their top games is Men In Black II Extreme. 20+MB Download…without the WildTangent plugin (another 4-7mb)
Sorry guys, I am convinced that the download issue is really not such a big issue anymore…
-SG
One more thing, with regard to DirectX. It may ship with the Windows operating system, but most games today require you upgrading. And their technology upgrade is NOT incremental, unlike the JRE.
It’s as much about complexity as size. As soon as a potential customer has to download another thing to make something work, they give up.
(I’ve actually got the proof finally too but that’s another story)
And Chris, we really do need to talk when you get a few minutes…
Cas
I wasn’t criticizing the business model of Alien Flux but more that of Puppy Games (ie the publisher).
I understand all the arguments that you have put forward and I think the LWJGL does provide a valuable alternative (one I have quoted in arguing with a less java enthusiastic friend of mine proving that you can do things in java he thought you couldn’t). Alien Flux appears to benifit from this.
What I am saying is why restrict your Puppy Games publisher business by imposing the Alien Flux model onto others who might be developing very different games with very different target audiances? A book publisher would reject a 600 page book aimed at five year olds, but would normally consider it if it was aimed at adults for example.
I have to confess I hadn’t realised the runtime had become so big! 15MB, geeze…
Will.
If we “outsource” our development to other developerps, our primary cost is bandwidth. It costs a little bit for every meg downloaded. A game that sells for $20 and is only 10mb will make three times the profit of a game that sells for $20 and is 30mb. It’s basic, simple economics.
It’s also pretty much a dead cert that it’s not the size of games that sells them, it’s just how good they are at satisfying a market. As we’ve discovered with Alien Flux, which as a valuable learning exercise I’d urge anyone else not to write a hardcore shoot-em-up and try to sell it to the great unwashed 
Cas
fair enough. Do you get a large sum of bandwidth to start with? One server company I know about gives somthing like 700GB/month which is about 23k downloads of a 30MB game.
if you offload the jvm onto sun, then you can double that amount too or if you have a download for people who already have the jvm.
So what if bandwidth wasn’t an issue - ie the developer was hosting that on their server (eg. in the case of a multiplayer game). Then you are left with registration processing, support and publicity? Anyone can host a file for download but the other three points are much harder to do, especially alone. Would Puppy Games do that?
Will.
Well, let’s try it and see!
The absolute, final number one hurdle to everything is… actually having a product to sell. So far there’s been a stunning lack of anything concrete from anyone, not even a vague hint of a half completed demo! Apart from Elias and he’s doing his own stuff his own way. Although I reckon I can blag an affiliate deal out of him because his game looks so good 
Cas
[quote]So far there’s been a stunning lack of anything concrete from anyone, not even a vague hint of a half completed demo!
[/quote]
cough, hack
Stunning lack of nearly anything Besides - Wurm is still just a tech demo - there’s no game there yet! That’s the hard part!
Cas
Whatever happened to the Final Fantasy Tactics clone? ???
[quote]Stunning lack of nearly anything Besides - Wurm is still just a tech demo - there’s no game there yet! That’s the hard part!
Cas
[/quote]
Haha, yeah. I’ve got papers and .txt documents filled with TODO’s. Many of them are strange, like the one that says “add JavaSpeech support (?)”. Hehe.
We’re going to “publish” it ourselves, but perhaps when Wurm is in beta, PuppyGames and WurmOnline.com could link each other?
Of course.
Cas
[quote] Whatever happened to the Final Fantasy Tactics clone?
[/quote]
I’d be very interested in that… I’ve been playing Final Fantasy Tactics Advance on the Gameboy and am completely addicted. Best new game genre I’ve played in awhile. THAT might be a game I’d be interested in buying. In fact, I’ve been enjoying it so much that I was considering going that route when I started my own game. Any idea who was working on it?
[quote]Any idea who was working on it?
[/quote]
Quick search…
Right, it was to be called Tactxs and was last mentioned at the end of March. Leknor and Toby Reyelts were the core team, but neither has posted here since the end of July. :-/
But don’t you just love Google? Freshmeat last saw Leknor on the 5th of this month and Toby posted in comp.lang.c++ mid August, so they’re both stil alive, probably just caught up in other things. If you’re interested in the fate of Tactxs you may want to try email, I doubt a PM will get to them any time soon.
Charlie Dobbie, data miner extraordinaire! ;D
Leknor (Sandy McArthur) has been helping me debug Matrox problems just recently. The end result is the game now runs on Matrox! Hey - it might even run on your shitbag S3!
Cas
Aye, I was working with them as well. Unfortunatly I lost 'net access from home for the last several weeks, and recently the CVS dissappeared. Development seems stalled, now i’m back online with a proper b.band connection I’m gonna see if we can ressurect the thing again…
Mojomonkey: if you like tactics game you should look into the shinging force games, they are my favortie tactics type games, and some of the oldest along with feda. Two for sega genisis and one for sega cd, two? for game gear, 3 for sega saturn. I am thinking of making a game that is similar to the sega saturn version. Working on the terrain generation for it now.
nathan
[quote]You’re in the same boat no matter what with a few important differences:
Nearly all Windows users have DirectX installed, and nearly all DirectX installations are at version 7 now. DirectX 7 is perfectly adequate for 3D gaming and can be relied upon to be present,
[/quote]
Despite the fact that most games require DX8 IME for the last 2 (?) years, and DX9 has been out a while…
And in fact I was with someone last week who couldn’t play a game because it needed DX9 and the DX9 download from windows update was so slow (on fast ADSL !) and kept crashing the XP Home computer when it tried to install. Not good.
P.S. I’m not disagreeing - just pointing out that DX is frequently a throbbing great pain in the arse, and does prevent people from playing games, both because of download issues and because of installation bugs.
…MS just happens to screw it up quite often. Seriously, folks, I’ve seen C++ developers go through considerable debate about whether and how to include DX - just as we wonder whether and how to include JVM.
As Cas is saying, it’s typically easier to provide DX than the JVM, but there are still big problems there :(.
Ah yes, the problem that Q3 encountered, of course, giving birth to glsetup :). Sad to hear that glsetup hasn’t yet “fixed the world”…
[quote]The fact is you’ve got to compare the download size with what you get from a C++ application.
In a 20MB C++ application you’ve more or less got 2MB of code and 18MB for content - that’s a big game.
In a 20MB Java application you’ve got 14MB blown in a JVM, 2MB of code or so (they’re approximately equal), leaving just 4MB for content. That’s a 20MB download for 4MB of content. Ouch!
[/quote]
Aha, Microsoft does it again, lulls you into a false sense of security, then screws you over just when you aren’t looking. As of today, sorry Cas :
In the current (November) issue of PC Pro, however, editor James Morris writes: “Microsoft US has banned the inclusion of any of its code on magazine discs. Presumably, the company assumes we all have broadband to download up to 166MB for DirectX 9b or 134MB for Windows XP Service Pack 1a.”
I’m sure they’ll sort themselves out within a few weeks, but for now I’d much rather download JRE 1.4.2 to play a game than the new DX9 update ;D