[quote]Err - what like that Java for gaming is cross-platform across Win32 only?
[/quote]
That’s just simply not true, however unimpressed you are with mac’s current JVM.
Doom 3 in java would probably run like a dog on the mac if it is really that slow, I’ll give you that. But that’s just one game in just one genre. The majority of games you can develop using java and run on the mac perfectly well, which makes java a very viable option for cross platform games development. Alien Flux being a real life example from the indie side of games development.
Your challenge to jeff won’t prove otherwise, whatever the outcome. When you ‘win’, it will prove the mac version lags behind performance wise, nothing more.
[quote]If you’re trying to disprove/prove Jeff’s points, don’t you think he should be setting the rules and you should be approving them?
If you disagree with any of the rules that would indicate a lack of communication skills in Jeff’s blog but maybe it would save us wasting a whole bunch of time (and money?) …
Ok, back to sleep now…
Kev
[/quote]
I gave him the opportunity in my letter:
“The rules will be negotiated to ensure a real and fair test scenario for multiplatform games development in Java, …”
And as I said above I’m not interested unless he is involved. So your point is …
Do you guys read anything here, or just leap in on the last thing anyone says, completely out of context of the discussion as a whole?
To reiterate myself for the 1000th time, Jeff has made many bold assertions about Java in his discussion with me, and I’m calling his bluff on just one of them - that cross platform Java performance on Mac and Win32 is a shining example to all of the C programmers out there.
Jeff put words into my mouth:
"I respond:
So you are conceeding the desktop argument and only arguing PS2?
Cool. 'cause thats theoretical anyway today.
I’m glad to know you feel Java is the equal of C/C++ in all the environments its currently deployed 
:)"
which I never said. You assume I think performance on Win32 is up to C. He has accused me of creating ‘straw men’ as he calls them, and putting words into his mouth. Well here is a shining example of him doing it to me. Curiously he seems to imply that he thinks ‘Java is the equal of C/C++ in all the environments its currently deployed’ (to quote him). Isn’t the Mac ‘an environment’ that java is currently deployed in?
It seems you guys are trying to swivel the discussion around from where it started, so try reading the whole blog, discussion and this thread before jumping in. This is not a discussion about the suitability of Java for 2D and simple 3D games. Maybe try reading my open letter to him, it’s not very long and says everything there is to say about the subject.
Do you ever answer anything without trying to be offensive on the way?
Kev
Actually I’m a bit tired of reiterating myself, so think on this:
1/ Read the blog, discussion, and afterwards my letter.
2/ If you really believe the assertion that I am challenging, then put up $500 and I’ll get some rules up to agree between us. The only objections to rules that I will listen to are those that mean the challenge does not fit the statement I made in my open letter.
3/ Otherwise forget this thread. I am NOT interested in a religious debate, nor any of the other debates some of you guys have tried to turn this into.
I look forward to hearing fromt those of you who believe my challenge can be met.
Andy.
Kev, my last post until I hear from people taking up the challenge.
It’s a direct question born of frustration. Either you did or you didn’t. If you did, then you obviously didn’t understand my point - I have tried to be crystal clear but obviously failed. If you didn’t then where is your objectivity?
I guess you are easily offended which was not intended, but think about which of the above it was…
Glad to hear it, but yet again I doubt it.
Kev
And thats not overtly offensive ???
Yep, it sure was. (born of frustration no doubt)
Kev
[quote]Yep, it sure was. (born of frustration no doubt)
Kev
[/quote]
Kev, do you watch a TV programme when you don’t like it? Then I suggest you change channel.
When you start a discussion here, you are bound to get it.
I’m not interested in your personal vendetta against jeff, so spare me the details and yes, I read the whole blog.
EDIT:
[quote]1/ Read the blog, discussion, and afterwards my letter.
2/ If you really believe the assertion that I am challenging, then put up $500 and I’ll get some rules up to agree between us. The only objections to rules that I will listen to are those that mean the challenge does not fit the statement I made in my open letter.
3/ Otherwise forget this thread. I am NOT interested in a religious debate, nor any of the other debates some of you guys have tried to turn this into.
[/quote]
Basically you just want the community to help you challenge jeff about some point he made, but only by putting in big piles of cash. And then you just dismiss any broader discussion about the subject by re-iterating your personal frustrations with jeff over and over again, making you even more frustrated.
You seriously expect something useful will come out of this???
/me still awaits the physics algorithms 
[quote]When you start a discussion here, you are bound to get it.
I’m not interested in your personal vendetta against jeff, so spare me the details and yes, I read the whole blog.
EDIT:
Basically you just want the community to help you challenge jeff about some point he made, but only by putting in big piles of cash. And then you just dismiss any broader discussion about the subject by re-iterating your personal frustrations with jeff over and over again, making you even more frustrated.
You seriously expect something useful will come out of this???
[/quote]
I’ll make this easy. Please answer these questions:
- There exists a claimed by Jeff that Java is as fast as C/C++. True or false?
- The osnews.com benchmarks’ suitablility for measuring Java’s game performace is disputed. True or false?
- The Full Sail FPS is not available for public analysis. True or false?
- Positive assertions require evidence, since the burden of proof is on the asserter. True or false?
- Following on from #2 and #3 - neither suitable benchmarks nor sample implementations have been offered by Jeff to support his statements. True or false?
Don’t be so childish.
Sorry.
Kev
Maybe it would be a good idea to move this thread to the Webblog from which it started, because it floods this forum in a bad way - remember the unhappy “view last 10 postings”!
People here are used to participate in constructive and helpful threads, usually without flame wars and “my dog is faster than yours” silliness. Simply because we don’t need them: most of us here are or have been experienced C++ programmers who know well how Java “is” and are interested in how to make their Java games better. This forum serves this task.
Currently this board doesn’t know an anti-advocacy sub-forum. In case one should be created, please move this thread to there, and enable a kill-file feature. Thanks.
[quote]'ll make this easy. Please answer these questions:
[/quote]
FWIW, I would like to see such a benchmark. I just don’t like being patronized when questioning the value of it in the broader picture, thank you very much. Just create the benchmark yourself for whatever it’s worth and get it over with.
[quote]Maybe it would be a good idea to move this thread to the Webblog from which it started, because it floods this forum in a bad way - remember the unhappy “view last 10 postings”!
People here are used to participate in constructive and helpful threads, usually without flame wars and “my dog is faster than yours” silliness. Simply because we don’t need them: most of us here are or have been experienced C++ programmers who know well how Java “is” and are interested in how to make their Java games better. This forum serves this task.
Currently this board doesn’t know an anti-advocacy sub-forum. In case one should be created, please move this thread to there, and enable a kill-file feature. Thanks.
[/quote]
Agreed.
Evidence, evidence, evidence… now that’s a nice word! I have to write it all the time. Evidence!
Most mindnumbing thread ever ;D
What exactly should that “test” show? It would be just another micro benchmark - something wich wouldn’t be near a game at all. Oh and writing a “game loop” comment next to the main loop doesn’t help.
Q3 for example uses ~10% for logic (vm), ~10% for sound and… uhm… well the rest is for spitting polys at the screen.
A micro benchmark wich has about 95% logic and 5% graphics is - for games - absolutly pointless. Really.
I don’t like the fact that anyone who questions Java is instantly called a troll in these forums. There are a lot of questions about Java which do need answering. If the answers are unpleasent, we will know what to fix.
Blind faith is not a friend of technological advancement.
The simple fact that no comprehensive proof exists means that people will be raising these questions until there is. Rather than trying to stifle these questions, why not answer them?
Will.
Wow… interesting thread.
Here’s my 2 cents:
I think Jeff tends to overlook things when he is frustrated with an argument - not because he is losing, but because some point was made by the other side that was wrong… Unfortunately this makes his response overly generalized.
I don’t think Jeff checked specifically the performance on the Mac VM befiore he made his response. I think he based his response on what he knows about the Win32 VM.
It is not fair to ignore so many factors of Java in this sort of argument. The main argument that I think jeff was trying to get across is that Java is for most games plenty fast enough. He said it was as fast as C/C++, but he did not say it was faster or slower at any particular thing. As should be evident, there will be some things you can do faster in C and some things you can do faster in Java. Jeff even mentioned this with regard to an MPEG codec where it is clear that C/C++ and SIMD hand coded loops will give you a significant boost.
If you want to go through with a contest, then you have to make the rules a bit fairer… I think C/C++ will win anyway… since I believe the nature of this contest will play more to C/C++ strengths that it will to Java’s.
But, if you say no to JNI then you must also say no to any use of assembler (inline or otherwise) in the C/C++ version… since it not much different than using JNI.
Of course I think the whole thing is somewhat ridiculous, since if you were doing a game in Java and you really needed a specific bit to take advantage of things like SIMD you would code some small bits in assembler/C with JNI and move on. The time you saved using Java for the rest of the game will more than make up for any time lost optimizing a small specific bit with hand coded assembler… I think that is a large part of the point to using Java for anything. It doesn’t mean put blinders on and pretend that everything in Java will be as fast a C/C++.
I have written code which runs faster in Java than what I got out of Visual C/C++ 6.0, with the exact same algorithm. I know that Java is not inherently slower than C/C++. But I also know that there are great many things that I can do in C/C++ faster than what I can get out of pure Java. As Jeff pointed out, random access into arrays is one such thing.
I think it was Shawn K. that did some tests with basic floating point math and found that it was faster to code the math in Java than to try to be clever and use JNI for the math intensive routines.
Anyway I partially agree with Athomas that there is no point trying to convert C/C++ users. Just make great games in Java and be happy.