"No, You Can't Make Video Games"

General Discussions
#61

[quote]Society needs to stop pretending like we’re all the same, we’re not. I’m all about equality, but the reality is, we are not all mentally equal. Wink
[/quote]
Everyone I know has been saying this for the past few years, including myself. While you’re completely correct, society isn’t just going to stop which is very frustrating. The biggest example I can think of where “mental equality” screws up society is in the classroom! As a student, I have had to take many standardized tests which seriously are a joke. Anyone can pass them because the tests are designed to allow even the “least intelligent” of kids to pass (of course, a lack of knowledge isn’t an indicator of idiocy or a small brain!). A few of my teachers straight out say at the beginning of the year that they are just teaching us to pass the standardized tests, nothing more. We pretty much aren’t encouraged to learn on our own or delve into the deeper corners of education to learn more about subjects that interest us, which pisses me off to no end!

Luckily I graduate from high school next year. Can’t wait to finally be done with the stupid standardized tests.

#62

Wait till you’re a bit older and wiser and more cynical and have met another few thousand people and come back and tell us what your new discoveries and opinions are regarding this :persecutioncomplex:

Cas :slight_smile:

#63

Oh the old intelligence/talent arguments. This is something the tricking community often fights about. (Don’t ask what the tricking community is)

I think Riven is right on many accounts.

People are born with a certain base level of “intelligence”/“IQ”/rational processes. This can be different in all areas. This aptitude is just that. What our potential could be.

If I spend say 8 hours practicing piano without any musical aptitude at all, I would make it to say level 12.
If someone with a higher musical aptitude did the same they would make it to level 32.

No we both would hit a cap. Much like there are physical caps there are also mental. I could cap at a level 45 while the other would cap at level 126.

This is basically how it works. Just think about it. Both people have to try but the one with a better “intelligence” would succeed more and faster given the same effort just like in sports.

As far as why programming has such high fail rates I have a theory.

I had no coding experience until I took CS 1 at university. There is something I call the wall when it comes to beginning coding. It is where you have no idea what the hell is going on. You are just typing cryptic crap in and getting something out. We all had the wall and all of us took a different amount of time to get over it. It takes a long time for some. People just give up to easily. Because it is a wall initially unlike most other subjects including mathematics that are more of a linear growth. With programing it is a wall until you understand what is going on.

#64

Ha, I see what you mean :slight_smile:

Click on the ostrich 3 times for a nice surprise.

I remember reading the same thing, the article was talking about your brain can still form new links and rewire certain parts at later parts of your life. I’ll try to look for it.

#65

Using HTML was actually a good icebreaker for me.
You do not do a lot, but you get used to giving “cryptic” orders to reach something visual and you get fast results and then you will start to consider using JavaScript or PHP which takes you closer to programming how you know it and so on…

#66

I am 178.5cm tall man and I want to be basketball player. If I really want, try hard and practice every day. Can I be as good as 2m tall ones?

#67

Yeah, your family and friends ruined your cell division big time. Nothing to do with genes, I tell ya.

#68

Why not? :wink:

As a side note, it would be nice if there was some sort of easy language that people could use to get their feet wet when they’re brand new to coding. Some sort of Beginner’s All-purpose Symbolic Instruction Code that would require minimal inputs to get some sort of visual results that would hook people or at the least pique their interest. Yeah, somebody should definitely come up with something like that. 8)

#69

No, the best 2.0m guys will be better than you. But you will be better than the vast majority of 2.0m guys who don’t try hard and practice every day.

I don’t agree with the belief on this thread that programming requires some sort of special intelligence. A lot of good programming is about being meticulous, careful and methodical, and knowing your tools well. These are qualities different than raw IQ. Also, programming is not just problem solving - there is a creative aspect to it as well that cannot be rated on any simplistic linear scale.

Also, it’s a well known fact that the average person usually rates themselves as being of “above average intelligence”. Which is just a nice way of saying they think everyone else is dumb.

#70

True, but there are exceptions. People who actually are above average intelligence are capable of making this claim as well, just because a lot of dumb people have the “You’re stupid because you don’t think like I do” mentality doesnt really change that.

Religion and politics are a prime example that separate the “Dumb people who think they’re smart” and the actual intelligent people. Good luck with that debate with a closed minded and unintelligent person, it’ll no doubt end with him calling you an idiot making wild unfounded claims, repeating the same thing over and over they’ve been “trained” to parrot back, and ignoring your actual facts.

So I agree, there are a lot of people who think they’re smart, but are actually morons. They roam through life assuming if you disagree with them, you’re obviously wrong. They never look for actual truths or answers, nor have the brainpower to understand them anyway. They just want what they want to be true, to be true, and that in itself is all the reason it must be true!

But, there is a very distinctive difference between dumb people who think they’re smarter than everyone and people who genuinely are just smarter, regardless of education levels.

Circling back on track; I think StumpyStrust’s example is best. Everyone has the ability to hone their skills and become better at anything, but some people have a much higher level cap than others. For example, someone with an IQ of 70 (legal retardation) but has a slight aptitude for algebra can still be better than his intellectual peers, but he’ll probably cap out before getting into College-Level stuff, or trig/calc. (We’re also not referencing idiot savants and certain autistic spectrums, we’re assuming generic retardation)

Now, that’s an extreme example, if we back peddle to thinking about the difference between say, someone with an IQ of 90 and someone with 110 who have the same aptitudes in the same areas, you will start to see a trend where the one with the 110 IQ who works just as hard as the one with 90 learning faster, and capping out a few levels above the other one. The guy with a 90 IQ is pretty much an average joe (IQs between 90 and 110 are all still in the “average range”). So he’s still a normal, every day functioning person. He probably isn’t even considered “stupid”. Just a person. But the guy with the 110 IQ still has a leg-up on him, assuming they both had the same natural aptitudes.

#71

Like I’ve hinted at in a few of my rants in this thread, there are languages like that.

For young kids, languages like Scratch or Alice teach the concepts of programming with drag-and-drop interfaces that are actually pretty clever.


http://www.alice.org/index.php
http://www.java.com/en/java_in_action/alice.jsp

For middle school, high school, and even older students, I’d highly recommend Processing. It’s built on top of Java (actually I think so is Alice), but it makes it very trivial to have something visual and interactive going in just a few lines of code: http://www.processing.org/

I think languages like these, coupled with movements like Code.org, are going to change how we think about Computer Science education. Then it won’t be a matter of “programming is simply too hard for people who aren’t as smart as me” ego that pervades CS education (and this thread), but more a “you can do anything you want with programming, just like other art or science” approach.

#72

Actually, intelligent people are more likely to rate themselves as average or below average: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect

I think we’re seeing a lot of the Dunning-Kruger effect in this discussion.

#73

The exceptionally higher intelligent people completely break the Dunning-Kruger effect studies though because not enough of them exist to measure in the first place. Dunning-Kruger mostly has been used to compare people genuinely average (90-110ish~). People who break into above average and gifted tend to just know they are well above average, because the evidence proves it. Their battle isn’t so much understanding they’re smarter as it is the natural side effect of questioning every-damn-thing-known-to-exist, including themselves. Thus, it can also trigger insecurities like asking “I know I’m smart, but am I smart? Am I just clouding myself? or am I actually smart? What if I’m not smart? What if people just nod and agree but think I’m an idiot?”.

Another contributing factor is the fact a lot of westernized countries seem to ostracize intellectualism and call it “arrogance”, “egotistical” or “stuck up”, making people feel bad for being smart. that in itself really messes with the self esteem of the insecure intellectuals (Mostly the younger ones still looking for their identity). . . and that’s a massively more complicated subject, but it influences the results of studies like Dunning-Kruger on the mass population, specifically the people 25 and younger.

#74

Code.org said it best (in a tweet when I asked them about their thoughts): “Not everyone will be an expert, but anyone can learn the basics. Just like any subject, like writing, math.”

I think this is the point that people seem to be missing. Is everybody going to be able to create WoW or CoD or facebook? Nope. Heck, most people here (including the self-proclaimed geniuses and intellectuals who have no time for the plebeian masses) will never create something so massive!

That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t encourage people to dabble, to play around with Pong or their own websites or whatever. And I think attitudes like “some people just can’t cut it” discourage even that level of engagement, which is a real shame, especially when CS has serious problems with diversity as is.

#75

oh, no doubt agree with you there. I don’t think anyone should just give up and you shouldnt tell a newbie “you suck, stop trying dumbass”. It’s a harsh reality that some people can’t cut it, but at the same time we don’t want to discourage people from attempting to learn even if they are “doomed to fail”. Even if they don’t get anywhere meaningful during the pursuit, they’re better people for it in the end because the skills or lessons they learned along the way are valuable.

It’s a very fine line I guess. Because there really are people who just can’t cut it, and shouldn’t make a career out something they’re horrible at (Like in my OP about my friend and going to college to be a dev), but at the same time even if you’re horrible the benefits of trying something and failing outweigh never giving something a shot in the first place. The problem arises when you have to figure out when the correct time is to tell your “I’m going to be a rock star!!” friend who has been playing the guitar for 20 years and still sounds like a dying cat that he shouldn’t quit his day job to follow his dreams.

But, everyone sucks at first. I think the fine line is figuring out when sucking is due to lack of experience, or lack of ability. Once it’s realized that it’s a complete lack of ability, they should be gently informed they should try something else. People who can’t handle being told they’re honestly bad at something, well, that’s another problem in itself they need to work out.

#76

Right, but none of that is inherent to programming. The same can be said of art, science, math, gardening, cooking, whatever. I don’t think anything sets programming aside other than the lack of exposure most people get to it, which is something we can fix.

I think we should focus on how to encourage people and be more welcoming, rather than pat ourselves on the back about how much smarter we are than the average person.

#77

Only people who are talented can make video games, unless you put in lots more time and effort, unless you really are unable to learn how to make video games with the extra effort, unless you’re really interested, unless… etc.

When it comes to people, there is always an exception, and an exception to every exception.
Some can, some can’t. But it’s not always easy to work out who’s who.

Which is why they need to find out for themselves if they can or not. And everybody else needs to accept that not everyone can program, and also that not everyone can’t program.

#78

[quote]I’ve seen family members working the ‘10 hours a day’, passionated, driven, and sadly failing the study they worked so hard for. It’s heartbreaking. It was simply due to intelligence. Just not quite smart enough for that level of education, no matter their effort. She thrived doing exactly the same study at a slightly lower level.

Now, people, get off your high horse blaming it on lack of dedication. Life’s unfair, not everybody has a brain capable of their passion, even in the most stimulating, supportive environment.
[/quote]
Mostly, I think this is a reasonable example and laudatory outcome and conclusion. My only grumble with the above is that the reason for the lack of success doesn’t necessarily have to have anything to do with intelligence. There is more luck (randomness/chaos) involved than most people are willing to recognize. For example, sometimes a pursuit requires dealing with a process of trial and error. Given the set of all the people that launch, some will have the bad luck to try only the wrong guesses. Are they less intelligent, passionate, persistent? Not necessarily. Perhaps just unlucky.

The world is intensely complicated and attributing success/failure simply to one attribute is not an adequate model. “Intelligence” is multi-faceted and not entirely understood. I think it is good to be truthful when asked an opinion, but also to respect the individual with desire and courage and initiative to learn via their own process.

#79

Totally agree. :wink: I think we’re on the same page with different vernacular. lol. I don’t feel like we should discourage people at all, I’ll wholeheartedly teach anyone who wants to know anything about programming (or anything else for that matter), even if I think it may turn out to be a lost cause.

I actually consider programming more an “art form of science”, than just applying mathematical/logic solving skills to something useful, that might explain why as a life-long graphics designer I picked up on programming easily. For whatever reason the higher-order concept of computer programming as a whole flows like any other art form would. At least, in my mind. To me, graphics design and computer programming are just 2 different leaves on the same branch. The core aptitudes required are mostly the same, just a lot more people have a lot more experience in graphics design because of the huge brick-wall-o-programming everyone gets discouraged trying to climb.

#80

Yes, but the higher your intelligence the less luck has an impact on outcome. does luck help? of course. But luck is definitely not a “major” factor. That’s just something people say to feel better about their failures. Although there are cases where straight-up bad luck screwed someone over, but generally speaking and ignoring all exceptions to the rules, a higher intelligent person has a insurmountably greater chance to obtain their goals. Whatever they may be! :smiley: