[] Newbie that looked for MMO's developers in London but got advice instead.

Business and Project Management Discussions
#21

Frann,

The lure of making a MMO is a temptation that I (and probably quite a few of us here) get from time to time. There’s a whole pile of technology needed (in addition to 3D graphics) - Things that aren’t immediately obvious include scaleability - You can’t check every polygon in the world to see if it in view and needs rendering. Similarly you can’t check collisions of every object against every other object in the world (clear that scales as the square of the number of objects). Then there’s network bandwidth - you can’t send the entire world state every frame, so you need to determine whats local and just send that at an appropriate rate. Network lag is a problem - you have to estimate the movement of all the world objects from the last known position and velocity. Ideally you need to make players start and stop smoothly so as to avoid jerkiness.

There’s the problem of server scaleability for an MMO; somehow you need to split players across servers, either real world geographically, or by game area (or both). If you split by game area, there needs to be hand over logic as you jump from one server to another.

Then there’s the level design - tricky as different players are at different levels, you need to have areas for different ability levels and have a storyline that migrates players through the areas. There’s a lot of level design so you need good tools - there’s as much if not more work in those, as in the game engine itself. I really suck at gameplay. A good level designer is a must.

Then you need graphic and sound - piles and piles of art, including 3D modelling (Also an area of personal suckiness).

So all in all there’s a whole stack of stuff that needs managing. And unless its an open source project with enough seed design to get people to contribute for free, I can’t see how you are going to get all of this for what is effectively pocket money. The kind of skills needed are probably owned by people earning good money.

If you are still keen, after knowing all this, then go for it - You may succeed, but don’t worry if it all falls over :slight_smile:

#22

Thanks everyone again for the advice and mostly to make me understand better some aspects that I ignored in game programming. I bought a book called “Killer Game Programming in Java” for 2/3D and network games. So far, so good and also the level of knowledge I have is enough to understand the content of the book. Hopefully I will progress in my Java skills and make something to show you, so that you can give me further advice. Until then good luck to everyone with your projects.

#23

Hi

When I started multiplayer games coding I was doing it in the style of muds, all text based (back in '97), it was all C. Since then I have learned new languages, 3D maths, dozens of APIs, how bad I am at art, how bad I am at game design, but also how stubborn I am. I am still essentially writing the same game I started writing back in '97. Ok, it’s evolved a bit, but I have thrown it all away and started again as new tech has come along.

Many would consider that a failure, but I realised early on that finishing the game was not the goal. I was enjoying the learning of new tech, so that is what I focused on, and in that respect I’d consider it a success, it has got me more than 1 job.

In 2001 or there abouts I found these forums and Java3D, In that time I have seen a large number of people start MMOs, but none have ‘finished’, Wurm online probably has come the closest, take a look at it. They have been working on that for a very long time.

That said, the contrast is Minecraft, it’s not an MMO, but it is proof that sometimes, just sometimes, the indies can come up with something to rival the AAA titles. Markus has been very successful if you count players as the goal.

Endolf

#24

Markus was the “wonder boy” of JGO, and destined to succeed, after all, he won several Java4K competitions in a row.

But if ANYONE can find ANYONE who has made an even semi-playable MMO game, with just entry-level Java programming knowledge, in 1-2 years time, please let us know. Until then, consider any thought of doing a MMO just pure delusion.

The truth is, there aren’t any MMO games out there made by beginners in 1-2 years, simply because it’s impossible.

Trying to make a MMO with entry-level Java knowledge is like trying to make a skyscraper with a (and only) plastic hammer.

#25

I’m planning to make one :stuck_out_tongue: Though not in the traditional sense…

Cas :slight_smile:

#26

Well, it’s not like you have only entry-level Java knowledge and is making your first game :wink:

#27

I am busy with one as my first java project but seeing as I’m busy for like 3 years already (10 or so hours per week) I guess I fail another one of your criterias :slight_smile:

Mike

#28

Might as well be, it’s a whole new kettle of fish…

Cas :slight_smile:

#29

I wouldn’t be surprised if one of the reasons they are not very popular is because of this name . “Wurm” ? Man, what a terrible choice !

#30

Bahahahahahahaha :point:

#31

removed playful mocking in agreement of cas comment

#32

Hey, it’s not that bad a name. They’ve made more money than we have so I’m not going to mock :slight_smile:

Cas :slight_smile:

#33

In the San Francisco Bay Area, which is kinda sorta the gaming/engineer capital of the world, an entry-level junior game engineer could expect around $60,000 / yr, plus benefits and stock options. Ignoring those benefits, that boils down to (assuming a 40-hour work week and 4 weeks off a year) about $31.25 / hour. 50 pounds a month is, when generous, $100 a month. $100 / 160 hours (4 40 hour weeks) is 63 cents / hour. Minimum wage in San Francisco is $9.50 / hour.

I was working when I was 16 at $7 / hr, washing dishes for a restaurant. I knew how to program a graphing calculator in 5th grade or something like that, and at that age I might have been mildly interested in $100 / month (my allowance was $50 / month).

So. You’re looking for kids who barely know how to program, or what?

Now some actual advice… don’t bother offering such a tiny amount of money, and learn to program yourself. As a game engineer myself, this sentence of yours: “I have ideas, I can invest time on it, but I need someone else to do the development for me” both made me laugh out loud, tell the game engineer, sitting next to me (as a hilarious joke), and completely and totally turned me off to any thought of ever working on your project ever. Something that’s frustrating for me as a professional game engineer is being the monkey who implements other peoples’ ideas - ideas you often don’t agree with or understand and sometimes from people you don’t think are qualified to make game design decisions. But - I do it because I get paid and I learn important things from everyone else.

So, if you take the money out of the equation too… What incentive do people have?

Instead, learn how to code yourself, and then make it yourself. :slight_smile:

#34

Here is a nice “article” about MMOs:

http://www.gamedev.net/blog/355/entry-2250155-why-you-shouldnt-be-making-an-mmo/

#35

There are groups who churn out MMOs in just a few months. Mostly small website style ones, far from a typical MMO, but they do it. It’s the full triple-A MMO that expects 10s of millions of users which takes decades to build, and indie versions of those MMOs which take years.

So I think if you scaled back your plans enough, aren’t planning to make the next WoW, and even added elements to make it easier to build (like force small teams like in PSO), then sure you can build an MMO. Won’t be easy, will take you several years, but it’s certainly not impossible.

But I’d be weary of offering money on such a small and new project. Offering such a tiny amount will not attract anyone decent, and probably not anyone truly interested in seeing the project succeed. Might not be bad people, but will be mostly interested in making £1,000 doing some cheap Java work; that’s all. On such an early project that is not what you need.

To clarify here is what I would suggest: scale back your plans to something reasonable, get an alpha demo built, then look for others to help out, then build to completion.

I wouldn’t worry so much about trying to find players whilst it’s built; people just don’t like playing incomplete/buggy games. So you can start doing looking for users when it’s approaching completion.

Finally like others have said, having ideas means nothing. Even good ideas are worthless if they are badly implemented.

#36

My advice, learn to write code yourself. You may not want to write the whole game but having a broader skillset yourself will only make the project easier to manage. I don’t care what PMI, CMMI or other PM gurus say.

Reverse engineer, study, improve upon open source MMPG like http://illarion.org/

Reinventing the wheel isn’t always bad - just know when you are and when you aren’t. And at this point is doesn’t sound like you are breaking any new ground in the market so learn from others.

#37

You made an account just to revive this old thread? O_o :o