M2M website closes in protest of software patents

[quote]As Greg points out, the people who are most likely to object to patents are people don’t want to be hindered in their ability to use technology in their livelihood, but are still highly protective of the fruits of their own labors. Many of the same game developers who get so riled up by software patents also don’t want people copying and redistributing their games (or game assets) without their permission (or without paying for it). Copyright they understand, because it protects them. Patents they don’t understand, because it protects others from them.
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There is a huge difference from not wanting people to make binary copies of a produced games (much like one would copy a book), than there is to release the sourcecode for the game, to encourage innovation.

Take Alien Flux, as a very good example. Most of the code is open source (not as in gpl, but still) - Cas often points people to look in the source code for hints how to do stuff. This is a very good thing - it makes people produce better stuff, since they don’t have to start from scratch. That said, he ofcourse doesn’t want people to steal his sale by copying the product, and redistributing it. Most games out there that are open sourced, have their CODE openend up - not the artwork. Since this is copyrightable in some way.

[quote] This is all well and good if you’re in the business of using new technologies, but what if you’re in the business of developing new technologies? The work that goes into developing a unique and novel solution that will be useful to an entire industry is rarely trivial, though reimplementing that solution once it’s been demonstrated and described may often be, and therein lies the problem.
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Yes, but as you said yourself - the problem is that patents are granted, in what seems to be without thought whatsoever!
Fix this, (and the longevity) and I’ll wager that most wouldn’t have problems. But as it stands now - software patents are lame.

Imagine someone in the good old days patented books!! - I know this wasn’t the case, but some future patent might have profound social and technological problems.

Currently we’re seeing a core technology of the internet becoming a target of a patent (plugins in browsers). The result? Microsoft and other companies have begun to remove plugins, and redesign its plugin technology (don’t know what they’ll come up with though). The result? all websites using plugins (quite a lot, flash is used very much) will stop working. Is this really a good thing? - I fail to see that. If we had 3 years of life on software patents, this wouldn’t be a problem at all. But somehow some dickass company/decission process made the patents last 20+ years. “To save the small companies” - yeah, right…

[quote]The year the company was founded two of the largest animation tools companies released tools based on the technology we had presented, and discussed with them in detail. Lacking the marketing dollars and distribution channels of these long-established industry players we were unable to compete, despite the fact that our solution was still a couple of years ahead of what was being offered.
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You tell people how to do it, and yet you don’t have anything to back it up? If you wanted to license this to the companies, make an implementation - tell how to use the technology, and license it. Make it worthwhile for them to use your implementation instead of rolling their own - ofcourse, this is all history and everybody is always wiser after decisions have been made…

My problem with patents, is probably that I am a consumer. I don’t care about large corporations, how they make money and what not. What I do want, is the best possible product, best quality for the right price. More competitors make this more true than a monopoly. Patents are a legal monopoly. Nothing more, nothing less.

Getting back to the patent process, as you said yourself: The patent process is flawed. But why the hell do we then use it??? - Fix it, then use it. Patents can have a seriously profound impact on the whole industry! We don’t turn on a flawed nuclear reactor do we?
We CAN fix the process, so we should. The last 10 years hasn’t seen anyone trying to fix it…

My rant :slight_smile:

right here:

[quote]A world without patents would be mostly devoid of innovation as the larger players would simply outmaneuver and out price their competitors and the people who actually innovated would get no real benefit from their hard work. That is not beneficial for consumers.
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AFAIK, all gnu software doesn’t have any patents in them. Thus they’re devoid of innovation and outmaeuvered by the large companies?
IMO, GNU software is beneficial for consumers, it does produce money for companies and some of the stuff is quite innovative.

Patents are just a pure excuse for having a small monopoly…

Let’s just imagine here. We remove ALL patents in the whole world. Would the world break down? Would companies start to break down? No ofcourse not. It would just mean that now ALL companies would have to compete on the same terms. If you have a product that is really ingenious, you just make sure that you’re product has the best implementation, and the right price. If you haven’t got that, why do you then want to enforce the consumer to pay money for a crappy implementation, just because you’re the only one? (assuming that consumers need that implementation).

Making an analogy to copyrights, I have to wait 3 months extra AND pay more money for a region 2 dvd, than a region 1 dvd. I don’t need the content on region 2, I am totally content with the region 1 dvd, yet I can’t have it. Stupid stupid stupid. Give consumers a choice, and they’ll reward the best product.

Competition is a good thing, isn’t that really the core mantra of capitalism? Why do we then do the exact reverse thing?

Oh, forgot one simple thing…
good thing no one patented:
UDP, TCP, IP, IPv6, SNMP, ICMP, SMTP, POP3, IMAP, NNTP, and so forth, oh and browsers…

food for thought, had some of those core technologies of the Internet been patented, we’d probably not be where we are today…

/me goes off to patent “posting text to an online forum” ::slight_smile:

I think the point is that obvious, widespread things shouldn’t be patented, for instance scrollbars, progressbars, the concept of webportals, browser-plugin-technology, certain website layouts and a lot more. As AThomas and Greg pointed out patents can be useful in their traditional sense.

[quote] To be honest, the only people I’ve ever talked to complaining about patents/copyrights were people who believed that everything should be free - ideas, software, music etc. and that we should all get along and paint our CD covers with pansies and bunnies.
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You mean like the Oracle Corporation? or all the signatories of EU patent protest (like Opera software)?

The ideal world (where even small software firms are allowed to develop software without fear of patent bullying) may not exist, but it is our job to try to make our politicians get us as close as possible.

I also think this statement from the linked page sums up quite well why even people who believe in competition may get patents: [quote]Oracle filed its first patent application in November 1991, not because it felt that its software was suddenly worthy of patent protection; it filed that application because of concerns that other inventors, afforded patent protection by a flawed patent system, might find themselves in a position to seriously weaken the Company’s competitive edge by alleging patent infringement.

Unfortunately, as a defensive strategy, Oracle has been forced to protect itself by selectively applying for patents which will present the best opportunities for cross-licensing between Oracle and other companies who may allege patent infringement.
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I am sorry to hear that Athomas failed to make money off his invention, but that’s no excuse to implement a monopolistic system that lets big companies tax all small companies who develop software.

[quote] I think the point is that obvious, widely spread things shouldn’t be patented, for instance scrollbars, progressbars, the concept of webportals, browser-plugin-technology, certain website layouts and a lot more. As AThomas and Greg pointed out patents can be useful in their traditional sense.
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They are widespread BECAUSE noone patented them! - had they been patented from the start, they would not have become widspread - thats exactly my point!

[quote]As AThomas and Greg pointed out patents can be useful in their traditional sense.
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Yes, just as gasoline can start my BBQ, but that doesn’t make it the right tool for the job.

You can drop the “widespread” in my sentence. The emphasis was on “obvious”. :wink:

[quote]Oh, forgot one simple thing…
good thing no one patented:
UDP, TCP, IP, IPv6, SNMP, ICMP, SMTP, POP3, IMAP, NNTP, and so forth, oh and browsers…

food for thought, had some of those core technologies of the Internet been patented, we’d probably not be where we are today…

/me goes off to patent “posting text to an online forum” ::slight_smile:
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I’ll just pick one of those because I’m exceedingly famillar with it. There are SEVERAL patents with respect for browsers all coming from the original Mosaic folks. In fact Netscape was sued back in the day for violating some of them. Don’t assume for a minute that most of the Internet protocols don’t have patents associated with them.

As to patenting “posting text to an online forum”, if you can find a new, useful, novel and non obvious way to type text into a form field, more power to you :slight_smile:

Mind control! I’ll just nip down and patent that, then sit back and watch the money roll in in several years time ;D

The worrying thing is that the requirement of having a working implementation seems to be largly ignored judging by recent US patents :o

Oh, and if you want to take a look at the intellectual property statements for the IETF protocols go here:

http://www.ietf.org/ipr.html

What? Patented IP that you use everyday? Heaven forbid :slight_smile:

Just a quick note that releasing sourcecode is not akin in any remote way or similar to patents.

Sure, but as I pointed out, Cas is looking to make money off his content, not off the technology. Who’s to say that some artistically-challenged game developer out there wouldn’t be able to create some great new innovative game, if he only had free access to the Image Bank’s stock photography inventory. Are image copyrights stifling creativity?

I didn’t say that patents were granted without thought whatsoever, only that to the press has made it out that way because it fuels outrage and sells papers. Lame as they may be, they are currently the only protection the independent inventor has.

If they had patented a process for delivering text in a portable, easy-to-manipulate form (definitely better than that outdated scroll technology!), the statute of limitations (17 years) would have expired by now and the technology would be in the public domain.

What is truly ludicrous IMO is the fact that copyrights are now valid well beyond the conceivable lifespan of the creator, and every few years are extended even further. How do you encourage further creativity in someone who’s dead?! If today’s copyright laws had been around 400 years ago, you have to pay the Shakepeare Corporation a royalty everytime you staged a performance of “Hamlet”.

I think people want to believe that ideas can be patented so that they can feel justified in their outrage. Why shouldn’t the person or people who figured out how to implement plugins the way they are currently used be compensated for it? If somone doesn’t want to acknowledge the contribution of the inventor, come up with your own plug-in architecture and be on your way. If you think browsers plugins are too similar to other plug-in architectures at the time of their invention, than contest it. If something is widespread, you can guarantee you won’t be footing the bill yourself. Contesting patents is a part of the process too.

Actually it’s 17 years (from date of filing, not of issuance) Given the rate of change in software technology, that may be too long for software patents, and worthy of debate.

We did have an implementation, if we hadn’t we could not have gotten a patent. (point now made how many times?) In fact we had two. One, an animation tool, won an Innovation Award from Computer Graphics World and the other, a games middleware product, was used in the port of Jedi Knight II:Outcast to XBox and GameCube. However, as most of us familiar with Microsoft are aware, having the best product is no automatic guarantee of success.

Copyrights are monopolies as well, by that standard. Why shouldn’t I be able to take your photo, book, game, etc, create the highest quality reproduction of it and sell it for profit? If you were forced to compete, not just on the contents of your offering but it’s quality wouldn’t that make for a better product? If I can publish my own edition of Alien Flux, wouldn’t that force Puppy Games to price the game competitively, offer better product support, fix more bugs, etc, in order to compete with me?

Because eliminating ALL legal protection to independent inventors will only make things worse in the near term. Without patents the ONLY one’s who’ll make any money off of innovation will be huge corporations, and we all know how innovative big corporations can be…

[quote]Let’s just imagine here. We remove ALL patents in the whole world. Would the world break down? Would companies start to break down? No ofcourse not. It would just mean that now ALL companies would have to compete on the same terms. If you have a product that is really ingenious, you just make sure that you’re product has the best implementation, and the right price. If you haven’t got that, why do you then want to enforce the consumer to pay money for a crappy implementation, just because you’re the only one? (assuming that consumers need that implementation).
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Except companies don’t all compete on the same terms. (remember Microsoft?) And there’s a lot more to selling a successful product than having the best technology or even the best implementation (Windows?) You’re right, eliminating patents wouldn’t effect huge companies at all. It would, however, however kill the independent inventor (at least the one’s who have to eat) altogether.

[quote]I think the point is that obvious, widespread things shouldn’t be patented, for instance scrollbars, progressbars, the concept of webportals, browser-plugin-technology, certain website layouts and a lot more. As AThomas and Greg pointed out patents can be useful in their traditional sense.
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Any of these things appeared before September, 1986 (scrollbars, progress bars, etc) are currently public domain, so enjoy!

Too late. Your own posting would represent “prior art” thereby invalidating the “novel” requirement.

[quote]I am sorry to hear that Athomas failed to make money off his invention, but that’s no excuse to implement a monopolistic system that lets big companies tax all small companies who develop software.
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The patent system is the only thing that lets small companies tax big companies for stealing the software they’ve developed. Big companies don’t make their money enforcing patents, and I’m quite sure most would be more than happy to see the entire patent system disabled completely. They’d save millions in attorneys fees every year, and have the best possible terms in any merger/acquisition negotiation. “Sell us your company for pennies on the dollar, or we’ll just go off, release our own version of your software and drive you out of the market.” In these negotiations, patents are frequently the only bargaining chip the small company has.

EDIT: Patenting is not the only recourse of those who don’t want someone else to file a patent for the same work. Defensive publication is the most common, and most effective (and least expensive) means of providing “prior art” which invalidates the “novel” requirement for a patent.

[quote]Mind control! I’ll just nip down and patent that, then sit back and watch the money roll in in several years time ;D
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Hey, once you’ve got it working…

Can you name a few? I’ve been through the process a few times and can tell you that IME, not only do you have to have a working implementation, but you have to describe it in enough detail that the average practitioner in your field can implement it as well.

[quote]Can you name a few? I’ve been through the process a few times and can tell you that IME, not only do you have to have a working implementation, but you have to describe it in enough detail that the average practitioner in your field can implement it as well.
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There was one a couple of months ago that stuck out somewhat - some sort of hologram thing for projecting images onto a virtual screen. The patent basically covered ‘projecting a screen onto a virtual screen of infinate size’ yet their fairly crummy implementation seemed fairly flawed and was seriously limited by good old physics and the focal length of their equipment if i remember correctly. Think i’ve lost the original link though :-[

In short, their actual patent didn’t match their implementation, yet was still granted. It wouldn’t bother me too much but the limit of +17 years seems pretty over the top for something as fast moving as computer tech.

I’ll go out on a limb here and guess that you’re pro patents, Athomas? :wink:

(Really not trying to troll here. I just like pointing out the obvious. It’s funny. =D)

Also, I think I got an extra duke now. =D