Java Webstart Issues

Networking & Multiplayer
#21

[quote]Sorry, I know its off topic (maybe another thread would be worth while)

But how would that be doable, JOGL is dependant on AWT is it not?

Kev
[/quote]
AIUI JOGL is not really AWT dependent. (It shouldn’t be as OGL is a totally separate render pathway.) The JOGL API today presents itself as needing to start from AWT because of an attempt to make it play nice with AWT. But if you didn’t want any AWT there isn’t any technical reason it has to be dependent upon it.

Anyway thats my understanding.

#22

Btw, there used to be some open source third party tools for manipulating the Java Web Start cache, including pre-installing things in it.

If they still work they might be useful. l’ll try to find them again with GOOGLE…

EDIT: here it is, with a whole bunch of other stuff too…

http://www.vamphq.com/installer.html

#23

Nullsoft’s NSIS installer simply rocks. It’s just an awesome bit of technology. InstallAnywhere is a joke by comparison. Just try it for yourself, it’ll only take 30 minutes to write a new installer for the JVM.

7Zip is the up-and-coming super-zip that’s more squeezy than the rest, and it’s just been integrated in to NSIS. If I 7zip up the JRE installation I get 8.6MB (or 8.7MB with a NSIS install wrapped around it).

The JRE I installed that from was a 14.3MB download - yes, the big bloaty international one.

I’ll say it again: there is no excuse for the JRE (or even the JDK) being deployed with InstallShield. That’s a staggering 5.6MB saving. Imagine the savings in bandwidth to Sun alone.

(Oh and here’s another eye-watering statistic: the JDK plus docs amounts to 41.7MB when 7Zipped - compared to 80MB currently. Tsk tsk)

Gotta get those engineers out in the sunlight so they can see the real world now and again! It’s no wonder Sun gets so much shit from everyone with corkers like this staring 'em in the face.

As for providing a native GUI for Webstart - well, seeing as you need AWT at a bare minimum for the existing Webstart it rather makes the whole exercise a bit pointless doesn’t it :stuck_out_tongue: The whole idea here is making the client download smaller and license compliant within the existing license terms, and a native GUI from Sun is the way to do it, with Sun-signed Sun-located extensions to provide functionality by apps as they need it. There’s no shame in it; the JVM is not itself written wholly in Java after all. See if you can talk them into seeing sense. After all it’s only a few days bloody work to a half competent Windows programmer.

Cas :slight_smile:

#24

[quote] The whole idea here is making the client download smaller and license compliant within the existing license terms, and a native GUI from Sun is the way to do it,
[/quote]
Well I think its more likely that yould see the following:
(1) A minimal VM that has NO webstart in its installer
(2) A JNLP engine that you could write your own GUI to and download as the initial install for your app.

Actually I’ve ben told that OpenJNLP already can be used headless. And as its opensource you could throw out its GUI stuff easily enough. If i have a minute (hah) maybe Ill look into that more.

#25

Yes, but this is all sounding like work and normally we like to get paid for doing work.

Elias & I would love to write (and market) a Game Webstart system if we knew we’d get a license to sell it to developers. We’ve got a VM as you know, and we’re quite capable of implementing JNLP and slapping a native GUI on it in Win32 (I have to say it’s only Win32 that’s important here as the Mac is already sorted and Linux is… well, Linux :stuck_out_tongue: ) - the thing is that’s real work and exceedingly valuable, and completely impossible to do without Sun endorsement (ie. a contract) up front.

If we were to produce Game Webstart, which was a 3MB payload or so, how much could we license it for to developers wishing to deploy with it? $500 maybe? And what proportion of that would have to be donated to Sun?

Cas :slight_smile:

#26

[quote]If we were to produce Game Webstart, which was a 3MB payload or so, how much could we license it for to developers wishing to deploy with it? $500 maybe? And what proportion of that would have to be donated to Sun?

Cas :slight_smile:
[/quote]
Depends on what you mean. Something based on OpenJNLP I believe you could develop and sell with nothing due anyone. Note that I am NOT a lawyer or business person and NOT in the Sun licensing group. AFAIK though there aren’t any licensing requirements on the JNLP spec…

Destributing a cut-down VM is another story. The only way to do that legally today is embedded in the project (as an embedded Java instance.) Those deals are generally negotiated on a case by case bases. Chris is your friend here. (And Doug to a lesser degree.) Convince them that this is of real value to the developer community and they may be able to get you a break. If you are going to charge for the final product though I doubt it would be free.

#27

Back on topic ;D

I’d like to see Webstart integrate with my applications.
Make Webstart an available component which can be used to download parts of your application (and perhaps even classload them automaticaly)

Im working on something like this, but if Sun would do this for me :smiley:

#28

I understand a third party has already done it.

Look at OpenJNLP on sourceforge

#29

I can remember looking at it once and not finding it satisfactory for my requirements.
However as I can’t remember what was the exact problem, I’ll have another look (Java Webstart does contain everything I needed…if I can embed it with some work, I’d be a very very happy man)

Having looked at it again, I can say that with some minor adjustments, I can make this work perfectly for my environment and enable me to give the end users an way to download plugins and keep their applications up to date ;D
Thank you

#30

Maybe you can share the result… Maybe make a more specific project on java.net taylored to patching clients that are not installed initially via WebStart?

#31

I am looking at it and while the code is a little crufty, I might be able to use it.
First version would be specific to my project (im on a deadline here) however I’d be interested in widening the possibilities for this as a project.

#32

[quote]Maybe you can share the result… Maybe make a more specific project on java.net taylored to patching clients that are not installed initially via WebStart?
[/quote]
That can be solved with the following tools:

http://www.vamphq.com/cache.html

#33

From the bottom of the first page of that site…

“Note, that Celia will expire on March, 31st, 2002.”

Any guesses as to what that means?

#34

Hm. No idea.

try the tools. If they work great, if not then all your out is some Dl time :slight_smile:

#35

And now also with the latest version of JWS http://www.java-gaming.org/cgi-bin/JGNetForums/YaBB.cgi?board=OnLin;action=display;num=1075955939;start=0#0

Will.