It’s not going to run any slower. Load up runescape and see how fast it runs with 3d graphics. As for the whole install thing, just provide a link to the java.com download - I doubt you’ll have a problem with even beginners not being able to click next, next, next. And it did no harm to yahoo games!
http://www.radicalplay.com/madness/ (play the game)
http://www.sodaplay.com/zoo/index.htm (load some of the models and stuff)
You can also embed the applet so that it will download the JRE automatically if someone doesn’t have it.
I plan on using webstart for my game. Any suggestions?
Will it run any faster?
Can someone please answer this.
Your game will not run any slower, and as for webstart; I would suggest getting an applet/frame working first!
[quote=“Space Xscape,post:23,topic:30362”]
I’d advise applets unless you must use webstart (ie for local file access, TCP/IP, &c) - people get (understandably) nervous about the ‘Do you want to trust this app’ stuff that webstart throws up.
If you don’t request extra permissions (if you’re fine with running in a sandbox) then there won’t be any scary dialogs. (fuzetsu - see… no scary dialog there.)
Yes, Flash is faster than Java since it uses DirectX / Direct3D for graphics while Java uses software
rendering by default.
Flash is slower all the way. For a simple platformer with a tiny screen (eg 400x300) you need like 1.5-2ghz. Even with the ddraw pipeline you can do that kind of thing with 500mhz easily.
Oh and before you ask, yes, I update Flash regularly (new vulns are found every few weeks).
Flash didn’t just “get lucky” or accidentally get “good” and used widespread. They’ve worked hard to make it as popular as it is today, and they’ve had a lot of time to do it. Flash hit mainstream popularity about 2 years ago? Flash started out as “FutureSplash” on Macintosh, then made it’s way to the PC. It’s been around since 1996, that’s 11 years! When did Sun release Java? About the same time!
You cannot compare Flash and Java, there are two fundamental differences between them. Java being a technology, that is Java was designed as a VM and a language in which you could create solutions, while Flash is a end-user solution that has been re-coded at least a couple of times from scratch, that is it’s primary goal is user interaction no matter what is beneath it. Flash is used in only one area, for one purpose, while Java is used in many areas for multiple purposes. Flash is today probably all that it’s going to be. You’re not going to make enterprise applications, server software, full fledged gui applicaitons with Flash, unlike you can do with Java.
Would Java kill Flash if it ran as seamlessly in a browser as Flash? I would say so. The technology behind Java is built on a solid sustainable foundation, while Flash is a closed source solution that is been sold off between companies many times, remade etc. Any mentally normal developer would choose Java over Flash if a) it ran just as Flash does b) has all the editing tools Flash has.
I’m surprised, that a technology that is not designed to be as Flash is, can still do what Flash has been designed and polished to do.
Give Sun couple of years, or 2 major Java releases, to make Java run seamlessly (and translaccel/aa-accel built-in!) in a browser, and we’ll have a Flash killer.
The situation today is just an example of a technologically inferior product defeating a technologically superior product for the same old reasons, mainly user interaction.
[quote=“appel,post:29,topic:30362”]
That’s why I say they got lucky, although worse is better! Flash was terribly slow for years, and I ran everything on low quality until a few years ago. But its strength (I believe) has more to do with attracting more newbie game makers, spawning more games than Java and taking over the on-line gaming market. That and the graphical effects for web pages made flash a “cool thing”. Then you have youTube and every other website using Flash for their video streaming, yet you can do the same with Java - but better. In fact in Java you can stream any format you like, yet such features were never used.
If I were sun and wanted to get Java installed, I would partner with google to get them using Java on YouTube and google video. Then encourage others to use it for their web servers by creating streaming without server compatibility, i.e. it streams via loading many smaller files via FTP or something.
Oh yeah, and do the same with having mySpace use Java for (a) converting the formats, and (b) streaming the audio. Plus they can attack other markets, such as all the new picture slide shows!
The only way you’re going to do that, get Google to use Java for streaming video, is that Java would be superior in that case. It just isn’t. I have not seen a single Java implementation displaying video as a embedded web application, that actually works smoothly, loads up quickly.
The fact is more and more are starting to use Flash, such as CNN, and other big news sites for video. The user integration is far superior than the one they had, the standard windows media plugin that barely worked.
Java can already do all those games, and probably video, but the user integration is lagging somewhere 10 years behind.
[quote=“appel,post:31,topic:30362”]
Does eViewStream count!
Even Sun use Flash for their videos, but Java has more potential. For a start it can load video data in real time without server cooperation by just loading smaller file torrents and piecing them together manually, bypassing the need for streaming. Secondly it can always download the latest codecs on demand without (a) installing, (b) requiring extra privileges or © requiring user interaction. And it can do all this by using WebStart, since WebStart automatically downloads the latest Jar file to update the WebStart application, so there is so much more that it can do. Plus you’re not doing anything that requires privileges needing verification.
Streaming (IMO) is badly misused. It should only be used when something is being broadcast live or to provide automatic bitrates. If it is stored on the server and acts like an mp3 then real time loading is more than sufficient (if done correctly).
Java still “loaded” up, showing that annoying icon in the taskbar and showing a balloon with some nonsense text I’m not interested in.
It’s a nice tech demonstration. But user interaction still missing in that program, no play/pause and no seek bar. I’d also like to see a bit higher resolution being played, 4:3 dimension also 
They need to show that it can do EVERYTHING Flash does, that’s basically the standard today. If you can’t beat the standard then you can’t compete.
But nice solution there though. Wish it was OpenSource.
Eh? Most flash videos aren’t streamed. Youtube for example doesn’t use streaming (google video does tho).
With streaming you can directly jump to a specific position without loading the complete video up to that point.
But seriously. Java doesn’t need to replace everything. Flash is currently the best solution for video and beating it is almost impossible. You need superior quality and/or less CPU usage and it needs to start up as quickly as Flash and the compatibility needs to be equally high or even higher.
Forget it.
The guys from Opera came up with the only possible improvement:
edit: Oh and Theora doesn’t support lossless stuff, which is possible with FLV (2 lossless codecs and 2 lossy ones).
Oh yeah, it doesn’t stream! I don’t think it is that Java needs to replace everything, but if they could compete with Flash for video / audio playback then it would have a much higher user base than it currently does.
Besides, look at all the available codecs around, the compression ratio quality achieved with the format Flash uses can easily be matched using open source formats. And as for interface, pah! It’s not exactly a cutting edge interface now.
The Java platform icon is not necessary, although that isn’t much of a serious issue really now is it? From where I’m sitting I couldn’t care less what is used as long as it doesn’t force me to pay more because it’s a proprietary format. As for Sun, they should care because this will increase their market share and leverage.
[…]if they could compete with Flash for video / audio playback[…]
They can’t. Flash is more suited for that. Bigger user base, smaller download, no noticeable startup times, they got the tools and codecs etc…
Java simply isn’t the right tool for this job. The only thing that can outperform it is direct integration into all browsers. Get your pros n cons straight. 
I don’t like the Java splash screen, it is decent graphically, but I think it places too much emphasize on technology over user experience. The developer should be able to define his own splash screen.
One thing we have talked about, and that’s Java’s WebStart.
Ever wondered why there isn’t “Flash WebStart”? :o
I’m really opposed to how the WebStart feature is used, not because it’s a bad feature, but because it is used improperly. WebStart should only be used where appropriate. Small games that would be embedded on a web page if they were in Flash, are being created as a WebStart in Java. Which causes all sorts of pop-ups for the users, reducing his experience. Are Applets really that unattractive, that WebStart is more attractive?
And then again, if the game is small enough to be run as a embedded game, then WebStart should only be used for larger games, right? Well, hm, no, IMO you should not release larger games as WebStartable, you would want the user to download some install program and then set it up on the computer, like he has learned to do over the decades. Besides, the user would know he is setting up a application on his computer, and it would be properly set up, whilst nobody knows what will happen with a WebStartable application, will it add shortcuts to the desktop? Will you have to revisit that website to click on that jnlp link again to run the program again?
WebStart for games? I’m not ruling it out, but in most cases I’ve seen WebStart is used inappropriately.
This is more up to the developer though.
You’re totally off on your statement that flash uses directx. It doesnt, it just uses software rendering, because Flash is somewhat like Java multiplatform. It runs on 99% of all computers, you certainly cant achieve such thing when you integrate directX for rendering. I havent seen any state of the art Flash 3D Games either The best there is, is papervision 3D, which is able to render about 1000 to 2000 poly max on screen, and uses software rendering aswell.
The developer should be able to define his own splash screen.
Well, you can… with -splash.
-splash:<imagepath>
show splash screen with specified image
Are Applets really that unattractive, that WebStart is more attractive?
Yes, they are.
[…]IMO you should not release larger games as WebStartable, you would want the user to download some
install program and then set it up on the computer[…]
Well, you can use some installer and pre-populate the jws cache with your app. This way you can still utilize the updating function under the hood.
I think, however, that jws is currently only good for opensource, freeware or beta testing.
And yes, there is no acceleration in Flash. There is only accelerated canvas scaling (fullscreen mode) on some platforms with the latest player.
I thought that the Java Quake 2 web start done it correctly, although could not handle (a) FTP servers that were down and (b) FTP servers requiring a password. But once I selected the ts.berlin (or whatever it’s called) it worked like a treat!
I have seen many web start applications installing itself for no apparent reason, and sometimes applets just aren’t attractive. Having said that it’s been fine for flash, but at least allows you to be able to close your browser window and play the game. You are right about the uncertainty over what it will do, usually I have to go into control panel and remove it. I used to copy the jnlp files and launch them from wherever I stored them at uni; I had no idea how jnlp files worked back then but the soda constructor was a great example of its use for me.
Jnlp files tend to be used where Jar files would have in the past. Also Sun should have web start applications organised by domain name (first) with the option of being able to organize them later whenever they are installed.