Is java falling behind in game development?

General Discussions
#21

Ahem…I would wager that I have a clue. As does Jeff and Doug. If only the world was that cut and dry Cas.

Who says none of this has been pitched over and over again? Tell me, how many billions of dollars have been dedicated to DirectX and XBox? How would you expect to extract revenue from Java in the games market? I mean, to be fair, when the subject of being charged to deploy a profiled Java distribution has been brought up, no one wants to pay for it. How many billions would you expect to extract from the games industry from Java game development technical support and education? Stack rank the revenue derived from Java for games vs. system development, RFID, military and financial markets, education, retail, telecommunications and cable, ISP/ASP and automotive. Where to strike first? It is not a question of Sun believing that the games industry is important, but rather, balancing that against other markets that are important, and where Sun has a deep presence, as well.

All of the “solutions” that I have heard from the community have been delivered from a single point of view, from the person that has given it to solve their particular problem. It is easy to find the solution to other’s problems when you are not responsible for delivering it. :slight_smile:

I am open to all suggestions here. But please, do not insult those of us who have been trying to bring Sun, and Java technology, into this space.

And BTW, the DirectX comparison is not entirely apples to apples. Microsoft already owned the install base that required DirectX. And, since DX is just for Windows platforms, are you suggesting that Java in the console space should be for one platform as well?

-Chris

#22

Since JOGL, JOAL and JInput are quite mature why doesn’t Sun quickly take the extra steps needed to standardise those APIs, introduce them in the JRE and add some helper classes that bring those 3 APIs together?

Wouldn’t this be the first step to progressing Java into game development?

#23

While they are mature, there is still work to do to make them “commercial ready”. As well, there needs to be toolkit integration, TCKs built and verification tests done. Tack on to that ongoing support and development and now you are talking about non-trivial costs. Not to say that we are not driving towards these goals, but it has been much slower than I would have ever expected.

-Chris

#24

I know that you have had several offers of business plans showing you exactly how to do that, but weren’t interested (unless everyone’s been lying to me). I agree that a lot of hot air is blown about by people who don’t know much (if any) of the bigger picture, but AFAICS the ball is VERY much in your court there - there are plenty of people around who could help, but you don’t tap them.

Anyone who needs to spend even $100 million to get java + games sorted is in cloud cuckoo land. That’s not the way to do this kind of thing, and to sound off about how many “billions” it costs is merely to make specious arguments that quickly fall down under any sensible analysis. MS spends billions because it has billions going to waste in a bank account. They do that because it’s the easiest way to get what they want: if they only had millions, they’d achieve similar ends but at greater difficulty and greater cost cutting elsewhere.

If you were serious about this, you’d actually show people your estimates of what it would cost, and invite comment. The cry “it’s really hard! (but I won’t show you why)” is one usually used by people who don’t have a concrete argument to back it up.

I don’t mean to be offensive, but you and Jeff each have an apalling record of saying “I have figures I can share” and then spending years (literally in at least one case, IIRC 2 years ago first promised, still not divulged) failing to give them to any of many people you’ve promised them to.

#25

Not really. Doing that doesn’t solve the problems that professional, non-indie, games devleopers have w.r.t. java!

…which many people forget or simply are unaware of how time-consuming these activities are :(.

#26

Ok, not being typically british (read: not cynical) personally I don’t doubt there are efforts going on that we can’t see in the Sun world towards pushing Java into the gaming spot light.

However:

  1. Where is Java going in the games arena?
  2. Are games companies interested in the technology?
  3. Have the GTG seen a shift in the industry? (Its hard to see from the hobbiest view)
  4. Are there any initiatives that you can talk about to help encourage the community?

I think most of this sort of information is meant to be coming out through the Java Gaming java.net site and the Community Board. However, both seemed to have dried up almost completely (I suppose because other things are taking a higher priority)… is there anything we can do to get these initiatives restarted?

Kev

#27

This is where I was going when I started this thread. I like to know myself!!!

#28

Just because I have not tapped you or Cas does not mean that we have not used external help. We have tapped people in the industry to help us. The business plan is not the main issue.

I don’t believe I ever stated that it would take $100M to get Java and games sorted out.

I’m not offended, I just tell you what I can and can not share. I have recommended that if someone wants to get the cost they should contact the Java licensing group. A quick and dirty estimate, without doing due dillegance, would be over $145K per profile per platform. You would have to contact the Java group at Sun to confirm this. WRT to sharing information that is promised, I would also suggest that you don’t throw stones…

-Chris

#29

ChrisM - sorry if that came across as insulting; I wasn’t actually referring to you, as I know full well what your position is and how you’re basically hobbled by the powers that be. I know what you’d do if you were allowed to but someone in the upper echelons isn’t allowing it to happen in a timely fashion and I fear that there aren’t any irons in the fire.

We’re also all completely aware that you are totally unable to actually give us any useful information about anything in the pipeline on these forums for legal reasons and so the whole thread is completely one-sided and useless idle speculation :frowning: In fact reading back on it it just looks like Sun bashing which is not so good.

Cas :slight_smile:

#30

So if the PS3’s going to have a Java VM included because of that blue-ray spec (*), doesn’t this answer some of the questions?
Of course it depends on what the JVM looks like exactly. Allegedly (mentioned in the other thread) it means some kind of “Personal Basis Profile” based JVM, so no full blown J2SE 1.5 but still …

(*) Also being discussed in the blue ray thread here…

#31

I agree. It is not my intention either. But please give us something to show that I can spend time and money using their product, Java technology, for an industry “computer gaming” that has a very bright future.

#32

We have no concrete information WRT to the implementation. However, even if a JVM is present, that dosen’t mean it would automatically be available for anyone’s use, depending on how Sony would implement the technology…

-Chris

#33

I was only replying to your previous comment. I’m sorry, I misunderstood; it sounded as if the business plan was very much the issue. I don’t really understand most of what your previous comment was saying, then :(.

You keep throwing out “how many billions?” “who will pay billions?” etc. I’m glad we both agree that it’s nowhere near billions.

Thanks.

Sure, but why are you guys not the ones to be doing the contact, then telling everyone else what it was? Surely that would help your aims?

re: throwing stones…if there’s something I’ve promised but failed, then…what? No-one’s ever come back asking for anything from me IIRC :(.

I only brought it up because it’s frustrating that you don’t seem to want to share things, nor receive help, yet you go on about how hard it is, and that you have the will to do it, but don’t have what you need to get it done.

#34

You would too, in Chris’s position :frowning: It reminds me of the Emperor of China… ruler of the biggest empire ever to have existed ever… but totally unable to set foot beyond the walls of the palace.

Cas :slight_smile:

#35

A few comments:

(1) Cas. I empathize with you. I think your first post was 100% reasonable given what you can see from the outside. I suspect I’d have very simialr feelings sitting in that chair. Ofcourse the same reaosn it looks that way ios also why I can’t go into details as to what has really gone on. Suffice it to say if Chris or I ran the zoo (or Doug for that matter) the world would look very different today.

(2) BBB. I usually don’t bother to correct you much these days, but Im going to try here. You totally mis-read and misunderstood the point. The point was NOT that it would take billiosn of dollars to make happen. The point is that Sun has to track every SINGLE dollar as cost v. return. Those OTHER markets Chris mentioned RETURN billions of dollars. If you have a defensible business plan that shows how our getting VMs into the right consumer devices will RETURN billions of dollars I strongly suggest you take it to a venture capitalist as I am SURE they would jump on it and I know Sun would be happy to sell you a J2 license so you can chase those billions yourself.

(3) BBB again. In regards “figures”. I am very overloaded and have been for a long time. Things fall off my stack. If there is any publicly viewable figure that you need from me that i haven’t produced, please remind me and I’ll see what I can do.

(4) All: On Blue-ray. We can hope. My personal fear is that running Blue-ray menus will be sucha low end application that Sony will cheap out and throw some kind of slow but cheap interpreter at it and call it done. Unfortunately I have zero visibility into what Sony is doing or how they are making decisions. sigh

(5) All: Believe me, we understand your frustration. If you can, imagine how we feel because I promise you its an roder of magnitude bigger…

#36

In case I didnt make this clear above…

We appreciate the help of the community. You guys have made the game APIs what theya re today and we are extremely greatful.

In this case however, the part that is hard you are absolutely unable to help with.

Edit: I take it back. There is one, and only one, way you could chnage the situation.
Write a killer AAA blockbuster hit title in Java.
One so good that Sony and Microsoft are both desperate to have it on their platform.
You do that and all the problems go away

But don’t ask us for funding to do it. We’re not in that position. If we were, we wouldnt have all the problems we have to start with.

#37

One question and one comment:
Would it have to be a full game or could we produce a killer real-time animation like a trailer or game demo?
Sun would have to improved the technology, JVM, Java3D, JOGL, JOAL, JINPUT, etc. to produce a game that would interest Sony and/or MS. Would you agree?

#38

It would have to be a full game. The objective here is to put the console manufaturer in the position of either getting a VM on their platform or losing the potential revenue they would get from sales of the game on their platform,

Its not a question of technology. The technology argument is won. Its a question of financials.

No, I most emphatically would not.

The J2SE Hotspot server VM gives you C++ level performance today and the same hardware access you can get from C/C++. As of JDK1.5 there arent even any real garbage collection issues.

JOGL is a full, fast OGL 2.0 binding.

JInput gvies you everything you need in the way of controller discovery and polling.

JOAL is a full, fast binding to OpenAL.

AND if you prefer you have the alternative of LWJGL.

You have all you need from a technical standpoint. This has been more then adaquately proved by the work of developers like Cas, the Oddlabs guys, Shawn Kendall at Fullsail and Agency 9.

What is missing primarily is the budget for these guys to DO a serious triple A title. Alas, we don’t have an answer for you, there.

#39

It’s not just the budget, it’s the connections and marketing spend that really make a AAA title, not so much the game itself. I’m pretty sure a decent competitor to whatever Blizzard are coming up with next is entirely within the realms of even a determined bunch of indies but it will have such pathetic branding potential it’s going nowhere. Again, not something Sun can help with (Sun Games? Who?)

[quote] As of JDK1.5 there arent even any real garbage collection issues.
[/quote]
Heh, check Performance Tuning thread on the continuing bugbear of the kernel blocking problem in 1.5 that makes the entire system jerk :slight_smile:

Cas :slight_smile:

#40

Heh, check Performance Tuning thread on the continuing bugbear of the kernel blocking problem in 1.5 that makes the entire system jerk :slight_smile:

Cas :slight_smile:
[/quote]
Yah I skimmed that thead.

Whats odd is i saw no signs of this in either my work porting the Agency9 Megacrops demo for GDC (and my quiack and dirty networkign port was generating a ton of short-lived garbage) or in JNWN which Im doing with the pre-release Mustang.

Is it possible this is something thats just ocurred with one of the latest 1.5 releases? or that it takes an usual usage pattern to create?