Is it bad to start with Python and then move the Java?

[Herjan]

@jonjava

Kids aren’t going to learn anything slapping a book in front of them saying “read this”.

Well, I did… He wants to learn to code right? Its not his father that wants/forces him to code…

[kevglass]

Tbh, when we all learnt to code there was a lot less information and it was a lot harder to achieve (sounding old now). So if kids want to learn - they should be pretty able to start for themselves. If not, they’re not that interested and no one should start by fooling them into thinking it’s going to be really easy.

On the hand, if you’re trying to force kids to learn then any modern language should be fine - they all have their ups and down. The trick is finding practical exercises that stretch them without scaring them away.

Cheers,

Kev

[jonjava]

We’re talking about kids here, right? You know, tiny small people that don’t know what “geometry” is and have barely dipped their nose into multiplication.

If a kid is eager to learn you should encourage him instead of slapping him silly with nonsense. Telling a kid “oh just google it” or “oh just read this book which talks about things you’ve never heard of that uses words you don’t understand and will take you a month to read at least before you can do anything” is like throwing him in a sea of bad ideas wrapped in a steal cage anchored with cement to watch him drown.

[kevglass]

I’m sorry, I thought we said this kid was 11?

Kev

[Cero]

@jonjava

We’re talking about kids here, right? You know, tiny small people that don’t know what “geometry” is and have barely dipped their nose into multiplication.

If a kid is eager to learn you should encourage him instead of slapping him silly with nonsense. Telling a kid “oh just google it” or “oh just read this book which talks about things you’ve never heard of that uses words you don’t understand and will take you a month to read at least before you can do anything” is like throwing him in a sea of bad ideas wrapped in a steal cage anchored with cement to watch him drown.

@kevglass

I’m sorry, I thought we said this kid was 11?

Yes but… well, lets talk pedagogy

@Herjan

Well, I did… He wants to learn to code right?

No. A kid wants to have FUN. He thinks programming might be fun, and he might actually be true.
But a kid is not going to have fun for example programming data structures with no graphical output and stuff - talking about average here, I’m sure some will, but normal any person wants to have a little more visual fun.
Sitting down with such a child and actually explaining OOP visually by for example using a game and all the elements which are objects should be actually fun.
Of course everyone will say that a child should really start with a “learning language”.
I used WinLogo first… Best choice ? well I dunno, but do something visual

When MIT teaches programming in java they use the ACM libraries which already give you like a visual console, app view and 2D graphics and stuff, without having to write and understand all that lower level stuff.
Check it out here for instance: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgjJRQ-kntg

[Longarmx]

@Cero

No. A kid wants to have FUN. He thinks programming might be fun, and he might actually be true.
But a kid is not going to have fun for example programming data structures with no graphical output and stuff - talking about average here, I’m sure some will, but normal any person wants to have a little more visual fun.
Sitting down with such a child and actually explaining OOP visually by for example using a game and all the elements which are objects should be actually fun.
Of course everyone will say that a child should really start with a “learning language”.
I used WinLogo first… Best choice ? well I dunno, but do something visual

@MrCoffee

He has taken a Game Maker class and made a game or two.

I believe he is past that step as he has already made a couple games in Game Maker. In your defense though, I don’t know how in depth those games were or how much he learned while making them.

[ReBirth]

@jonjava

I’m all for freedom of opinion and all that but I’m not just stating personal opinions here. There are great efforts around focused on teaching kids computer science and, believe it or not, it’s not the same thing as teaching students at a university. Things aren’t the same, not even JavaScript, as they were a few years ago.

I have freedom to not agree too ;D Seriously, it’s not about the language of choice but the concept. And more, how you will enjoy programming.

[philfrei]

Python is an excellent language, and there ARE jobs out there. I have a friend working in Python right now, and I see that Tiobe rates it in the top 10 languages and gives it an “A” status. (Yes, I know there is some controversy about what the Tiobe rankings really mean.)

http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html

I think what one learns via Python complements what one learns via a lower-level, strongly-typed language like Java or one of the flavors of C.

This is not like learning to play the violin vs the piano vs the trumpet or whatever and trying to become the ultimate virtuoso on that instrument. Good programmers are more like multi-instrumentalists (doublers), have learned several different languages and paradigms.

I guess working with a game engine is cool, but they are often not the greatest examples of programming style to learn from. Their idiosyncrasies may be less transferable than you might expect. And they aren’t really necessary for Java 2D games.

I’m pretty sure there are books and YouTube tutorials for beginning Java game programming available. But the beginning Python book you found also sounds quite good.

[princec]

By the time I was 11 I’d written a Logo interpreter in BASIC and machine code on my C64 and had about 8 games published on the cover listings of various UK rags And I’m not even very good. If you’re into programming you’ll just do it - in whatever language comes to hand - and probably be effective in any new language that comes along later. It doesn’t matter where you start!

Cas

[delt0r]

And 11 is plenty old enough to “google it”. Its not a 5 year old that need help crossing the road anymore. If they won’t do that… we there is the saying about a smelly kind of creek and no paddles.

[kevglass]

What he said, exactly.

Kev