Importers: Status, features, future

[Bombadil]

[quote]And there are several more. But don’t want to bore you…
[/quote]
Your comments are welcome. Eventually one of the “artist’s front” joins the discussion, that’s nice.

[quote]Just i keep not understanding why engines make 3 times the effort to support 3 packages instead of this format and they’re done…
[/quote]
Well, apparantly most of the Xith3d users tend to do hobby games programming (*), so depend on those many free 3d models floating around on the Web. Probably most are in some Max or Maja format, also Lightwave I saw a lot. It looks like the .3DS format seems to be very popular probably because it can do all the things the other “older” formats can, plus animation. On Turbosquid for example many artists transform their models to the .3DS format, even if they used another modeler to create it (and many forget to tell the converter to do hierarchy export, and so the resulting .3DS files are flat and you can’t do any nice TransformGroup-tree transformation).

Does the X-format support multi-texturing? Well, there’s some natural hesitation when I hear the word Microsoft, SCO, … Also I think it wouldn’t be trivial to do a X to Xith3d loader from scratch…

(*) At least this is what my small poll says, named Do you use Xith3d for a project?
(Btw please vote, guys and girls

[Bombadil]

[quote]Blender already even import/export md2
but also 3ds, OBJ (I have imported a 2000 tris character into blender, modelled in Wings3d) and several others.
[/quote]
Wings3d I love because it’s so intuitive that even a non-artist like me managed to create a sphere. Also it reads and writes my tested 3DS model files so far.
Unfortunately no textures, no animations.
So I thought well let’s try Blender. Its rendered output looks lovely (the screenshots on its W3 site), however when I tried one 3DS import plugin (Python, has been on an external, dark, W3 site) it failed miserably.

Which 3DS and OBJ plugin do you use? Do they run with the current Blender version? (v2.32) ?

Thanks.

[snaga]

Your comments are welcome. Eventually one of the “artist’s front” joins the discussion, that’s nice.

Thanks for the welcome. I don’t come here often, is more curiosity that makes me browse forums quite diferent from my activities, from time to time.

[quote] Well, apparantly most of the Xith3d users tend to do hobby games programming (*), so depend on those many free 3d models floating around on the Web. Probably
[/quote]
well, floating around the web, is more all about md2,(if wespeak about animated character models) and usually not available for comercial projects… Static models…well, yes, 3ds is perhaps the more extended, sadly. As OBJ is much better. In 3d softwares, almost all open and export an OBJ.

[quote] most are in some Max or Maja format, also
[/quote]
In *.max (3ds max native. As 3ds does not retain most important information) or *.ma or *.mb (maya ascii and binary) are quite very hard to find, in inet, and more for free. When are in those formats, usually is for sell, and curiously way more expensive than a lwo , dxf or 3ds. Turbosquid is an example of this. In turbosquid, though, make a search there, with maximum cost “'0” , heh, TONS of models, mostly static, none rigged and bones, but tons of objects, for free! Go and try…unless they changed the policy…

but…if no readme is included in zip, with permission of allowed use , you can always have problems with the original author…

[quote] Lightwave I saw a lot. It looks like the .3DS format
[/quote]
Oh, I see…if you mean just static objects, not rigged and animated with bones characters, then usually is the old formats. people call 3ds a Max format. Well, I’d call it a 3d Studio 4 msdos version (I used it in 1996)

I mean, if what you want is just convert static objects for a ship, building, weapon…There are already plenty of free converters out there, no need to support all static formats :

• Cross roads. Is free. http://www.europa.com/~keithr/crossroads/

this other converter is quite nice too, not crippled demo .Is full. Only your ethics, say the author, would make you pay the twenty dollars after 30 days
http://www.micromouse.ca/fileformats.html

• LithUnwrap, is free and also uv maps.(it is the old version of Ultimate Unwrap)
• Many of the free modelling packages already support this formats, so you can ocnvert with them

-this is one of the best converter available for cheap $… :
http://www.meshbox.com/

-But if you are going to buy something, I’d advice Ultimate unwrap. 35$, and also is the best uv mapper in the world surface. It does support animation for x format, md2, animated export, lwo,dxf,OBJ, 3ds, lots of games formats, quake mdl, md2, md3 (only import static objects) , quake1,2,3 BSP, Halflife BSP… etc.

-speaking about that, a free uv mapper here:
www.uvmapper.com Search there the classic or beta version. Is free, open and export OBJs as well as a bitmap uv template (texture with wires painted)

-Besides Wings3d you have an excellent free modeller (again, ethically for non comercial, not crippled) called Metasequoia. Is VERY good. Also can be used to convert : cob, x , dxf export. Imports 3ds, lwo, obj , etc. Has functional uv mapping, and even allows a bit of basic 3d paint :
remember to download the 2.1a ‘LE’ version
http://www21.ocn.ne.jp/~mizno/main_e.html

and here, is a jewel…

While maybe the best convertors are there are comercial : Ultimate Unwrap, Milkshape, MeshBox, and of course Deep Exploration (300$, but Okino Polytrans is even more expensive) this one simply rocks as a converter. Still, most of what it does can be done with the uv mapper Ultimate Unwrap.
Well, the jewel is a download of an old version of Exploration, which was free, able to use. This guy has a download in his page and seem to be “correct” to use it. Support lots of formats, and conversions are made with ease :

http://www.dsmith.gmaxsupport.com/Essential_Tools.htm

search in page for “3d Explorer” and download it quick!

free models :
http://www.3dmodelz.com/Free/downloads/downloads.php

Indeed, what lacks is converters of animated and boned formats. usually Ultimate Unwrap and Milkshape the only cheap way. Being imho Ultimate Unwrap better.

[quote]seems to be very popular probably because it can do all the things the other “older” formats can, plus animation. On Turbosquid for example many artists transform their models to the .3DS format, even if they used another modeler to create it (and many forget to tell the converter to do hierarchy export, and so the resulting .3DS files are flat and you can’t do any nice TransformGroup-tree transformation).
[/quote]
many softwares don’t even support hierarchy export in 3ds…for that is way better directx7 , or 8. (*.x)

[quote]Does the X-format support multi-texturing? Well,
[/quote]
just two levels, if I remember well.

[quote]there’s some natural hesitation when I hear the word Microsoft, SCO, …
[/quote]
Well, don’t thing I’m fan of it… Is just that the format suit my needs…Indeed I play sometimes Age Of Empires, and was distributed by Microsoft…But for example, I much prefer Mandrake Linux than ms windows, is just that get forced also to use Windows…

[quote] Also I think it wouldn’t be trivial to do a X to Xith3d loader from scratch…
[/quote]
No, that for sure…nor any other bones and weights format…

But imho is the most universal of those and still can be used for static objects.

But yep, surely and if is for playing with a virtual machine or browser (the 3d animation, I mean) I suppose it’d better be light in hardware demand…weights are a bit more heavier than simple bones…
Md2 for this is better, but always that the count of triangles don’t go very highe, neither the frame number. And you’d better use md2’s linear interpolation to avoid a mesh per frame…just the keyframes.
Md2 is quite universal, and some packages export it by plugins.

In the cheap way, with OBJ and md2, you should be covered.

I for example, can export md2 with Ultimate Unwrap, Character Fx (an outstanding animation tool for 15$, bones and weights, exports dx8 format, md2, separated 3ds or obj frames, etc. With Lua you can make your format, too ) , or Milkshape. A Max user could use Max Qtip free plugin.

Yep, definitely. You have it covered for now with obj and md2. maybe you will look into *.x in the future, but is way more complex.

[quote]Wings3d I love because it’s so intuitive that even a non-artist like me managed to create a sphere. Also it reads and writes my tested 3DS model files so far.
[/quote]
Is probably the best free modeller out there. But you may like Metasequoia LE too. Anyway, Wings is totally free, open source, Metasequoia is not…somehow.

[quote]Unfortunately no textures, no animations.
[/quote]
Animations? Blender…Or Art Of Illussion…

[quote]So I thought well let’s try Blender. Its rendered output looks lovely (the screenshots on its W3 site), however when I tried one 3DS import plugin (Python, has been on an external, dark, W3 site) it failed miserably.
[/quote]
there are several plugins for 3ds import export…

soon they will be included in an import -export dialog in Blender.

scripts for export import here…
http://www.elysiun.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=5&topicdays=0&start=0

for example, an updated 2.32 obj import export script.
http://www.elysiun.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=21310&start=15

remember you need surely for Blender 2.28c, 2.30, 2.31, and 2.32, if I remember well, Python 2.2.3 installed

2.32 is the more advanced, I recommend it.

This guy is making a huge effort on getting done lots of import export plugins. basicly has a working md2 export import for Blender, but is not complete, though maybe usable.
http://bane.servebeer.com/programming/blender/index.html

A 3ds one, but has more serious issues, or maybe fixed already, etc…

For OBJ, I suggest better the other link I gave above . That is, the obj_io_modif232b.py script.

here, another guy with other converter plugins for blender. They’re said to be good. And lots of formats(take care, this is only for 2.28!!! ):

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/scorpius/blender_suites.htm

one nendo plugin from this guy…take note…Wings support also nendo format…
http://www.redrival.com/scorpius/io.zip

there’s even an exporter for doom format, md5. And that one has bones and weights…used now by neoengine, a very good free 3d engine. (c++ based I think)

And a dx 8 in the works, the static export already works…oh, i laready said that…

btw…I must emphasize that things like the blender io suite, and others, are gonna be inserted in Blender menus for one of next Blender versions…most logical…

at last, a list of formats specs :
http://www.dcs.ed.ac.uk/home/mxr/gfx/3d-hi.html

[quote]Which 3DS and OBJ plugin do you use? Do they run with the current Blender version? (v2.32) ?
[/quote]
I plainly can’t stand 3ds, so I don’t know
But OBJ, with OBJ_iomodified python script.

My guess would be…try Bob_holocomb one (no material export) or…the Scorpius IO suite… there’s also a 3dsconverter.blend…it’d be just open that file…

First of using a plugin, check the plugin is for your blender version (if not, have several blenders installed) and of course, the correct python version for the correct blender…

2.28 till 2.32, is for sure: python 2.2.3.
and configure the stuff in Blender. Tell it in preference where is located your python folder. Quite easy.

[Bombadil]

Many thanks for all the useful infos and URLs.
(Btw Kevin & William: did you know the quoted 3dspec site already?)

So you suggest to use OBJ for static models, and MD2 for animated on the “affordable front”… Interestingly.

[Bombadil]

In the LWJGL forum (and probably the JOGL too) there’s some talk about importers, too. A few are available already, some others are in the pipeline: they parse the 3d model file and you’ve to build it with “the raw OpenGL way”.

Maybe we could join forces with the LWJGL/JOGL guys, too. I think at some shared low level loaders for several model formats, which just offer the parsed data so they could be used as base for higher level Xith3d loaders als well as directly for the LWJGL/JOGL people…?

So whenever there’s some improvement on the low level 3d model parsing front (animation, smoothing groups, texturing UVs doubling, etc etc) both groups would benefit.
Current working loaders (like ASE, 3DS, OBJ) maybe could be used as codebase or whatever…

What do you think?
Who feels competent to start a thread in a forum where Xith3d and LWJGL/JOGL users would read and write?

[snaga]

[quote]So you suggest to use OBJ for static models, and MD2 for animated on the “affordable front”… Interestingly.
[/quote]
yep; md2 is exported by many softwares, there are some models for comercial projects (usually ver bad quality) and lots of them for just the coder make tests…

OBJ is supported for most softwares, it does support smoothing, info, materials and its attributes (quite a few) , supports quads, (though real time 3d is all tris) , has no count limits like otehr formats, no weird naming problems like 3ds, and usually is better understood by softwares. Also, is asciii, quite simple, and better standarized than other formats.
It does not support vertex colors, though (neither bones or weights) like direct x *.x does.

[quote]In the LWJGL forum (and probably the JOGL too)
[/quote]
lots of 3d libraries for java , aren’t they? they do all the same? I mean xinth, lwjgl, jogl, java3d…Well, I’m a non programmer…And quiet “foreigner” to java…

[quote]there’s some talk about importers, too. A few are
[/quote]
Euh, if you take part on those (i don’t frequent these forums) , maybe a good idea to link this thread in those sections, as I see most programmers don’t know of these matters, and can get handy.

[quote]Maybe we could join forces with the LWJGL/JOGL guys, too.
[/quote]
sounds clever…

[quote] I think at some shared low level loaders for several model formats, which just offer the parsed data so they could be used as base for higher level Xith3d loaders als well as directly for the LWJGL/JOGL people…?
[/quote]
the more standard, the less problems later, and more re-usability of models/formats…

[quote]So whenever there’s some improvement on the low level 3d model parsing front (animation, smoothing groups, texturing UVs doubling, etc etc) both groups would benefit.
Current working loaders (like ASE, 3DS, OBJ) maybe could be used as codebase or whatever…
[/quote]
there’s an open model format, called Cal3d, which supports weights and bones animation. Maybe some of you could have a look at it, if in real need of bones and weights, and really think the performance hit using them is not gonna matter…if not, keep using md2.

And at last, someone please do secretly a porter from cal3d <----> directx *.x …It’s a joke

[quote]What do you think?
[/quote]
is a long way, and a hard way. If you join strentghs, way better IMHO.

[snaga]

btw, question apart…sorry the little off topic…

Do you see too far the moment when mobile phones are ready to play 3d java games…? like a quake 2 with some limits…?

or is that a huge nonsense…?

I mean , in mid cost phones.

that’d rock.

this thing of 2d sprites tires me…though heh, doing for the money…

[Bombadil]

yep; md2 is exported by many softwares, there are some models for comercial projects (usually ver bad quality) and lots of them for just the coder make tests…

Nice to hear. Kevin, who did the OBJ and 3DS loader for Xith3d, also did a MD2 loader. I haven’t used it so far, though…
Isn’t there a MD3 format, too? I’ve read something in the JavaCoolDude thread with MD3…

What’s the disadvantage of MD2? I mean if you suggest to use OBJ for static models, there’s something MD2 doesn’t cope?

[quote]lots of 3d libraries for java , aren’t they? they do all the same? I mean xinth, lwjgl, jogl, java3d…Well, I’m a non programmer…And quiet “foreigner” to java…
[/quote]
Well, Xith3d is the OpenSource high level 3d API for Java (similar to SUN’s frozen Java3d), whilst JOGL and LWJGL are low level 3d APIs. JOGL is “just” an OpenGL binding for Java, so that you can call OpenGL commands from within Java. Xith3d bases on JOGL.
The 3d loaders for Xith3d and JOGL/LWJGL don’t do the same in total, but parsing the 3d file format they all have to do. So I see some work being doubled which shoudln’t be.
Well, I’m just the teeboy, a Xith3d user, not a 3d loader developer. I am not good (yet?) at 3d…

[quote]the more standard, the less problems later, and more re-usability of models/formats…
[/quote]
That should be the ultimate goal; however I’m still too new to 3d in order to start such a thing for Java 3d APIs. But I think I’ll start a thread in a parent forum.

[quote]Do you see too far the moment when mobile phones are ready to play 3d java games…? like a quake 2 with some limits…?

or is that a huge nonsense…?

I mean , in mid cost phones.
[/quote]
There’s Embedded OpenGL, a sub-set of OpenGL intended for the mobile market. In case a JOGL for Embedded OpenGL would work with J2ME (the Micro-Edition of J2SE, Java2 Standard Edition), there could be 3d in Java for mobiles… Not sure about a high level 3d API like Xith3d, though.
Maybe we should ask that question in the JOGL forum?

[snaga]

[quote] Nice to hear. Kevin, who did the OBJ and 3DS loader for Xith3d, also did a MD2 loader. I haven’t used it so far, though…
Isn’t there a MD3 format, too? I’ve read something in the JavaCoolDude thread with MD3…
[/quote]
md3…Could be ok, but I am yet to know if it does interpolation between meshes or not. I suppose it does.
basicly, md3 works this way…different part of the model, like head, arms, legs, torso…are separated objects. Then it is added a polygon where it will be the connection between 2 parts. This polygon is called “tag” .

Why, well, In my opinion Id Software did this mostly for two reasons : exchange heads between different characters, as well as body parts, so add more variety and less artist work required, or better said, many more different characters made with just a few.

Also, as though Unreal engine already could have done weights (and probably Id) it was too performance cost. So, bones an weights were not used. (an skeleton inside, with a list of the strenght that each vertex is influenced by one, 2 or 3 bones. These days even with 4 bones. I think the more bones which affect a single vertex at same time, the more lowdown for hardware. But not totally sure…)

So, Id made another way: each of it’s model ‘pieces’ instead of moving like an articulated mecano, well, in fact is that, but the engine code does generate a fake blended joint. I think it gives 50% weight to each of nearest vertices to the tag. Or something like that. The artist don’t control how “human-like” is the bending. One of my reasons to hate the format.

Other than that…md3 has some advantages over md2.

md2 disadvantages:
-bad shading.Somehow, seems lighting is not too good over these models.
-Vertex trembling. For an acuraccy problem, by format design or something (related to don’t know what precission thing) the vertex doesn’t know where to stay , often, and that makes these characters like wobbling. Is not heavy noticed, but enough for an artist to , if possible, avoid the format. Even though, I rather prefer md2 than for example, half life smd models. That is: bones, but no weights. Robotic bendings. joint deform very uglily. half life artists had to work a lot on tweaking that problem.

md2 what does is store a mesh on what is called a keyframe. (well, technical explanation is not exactly so…)
I mean, each mesh is a keyframe-mesh. So, the engine interpolates a kind of morphing of position (don’t know if also of shape too, I suppose it does) .The result tends to be smooth. And at least, shoulder deform as they should.

To be true, I have seen not much md2 models in realtime, but those which I saw, have the subtle trembling.

MD3 does not have this. So , the thing I wonder (I must know this) is… Does md3 allow also keyframe meshes interpolation? does the format actually forces to cut in pieces the model? I am lately guessing is only needed if is to load in Quake 3 game, but not actually if you use in other engine.

As far as I know, md2, md3, bsp Id formats, are free, so you could even adapt the thing to your needs .What is not free is the Id software tools to produce them but there quite a few open source and freeware for this output.

if md3 does the interpolation, and can be single piece (the morphing will make it smooth) … Then I’d see mor epoint on using md3 than md2.

there’s another big doubt I have about the format, and is if in the final engine (java in this case) it can be put the interpolation setting…I mean, in the case the md3 or md2 output, that value is not added…if any coder knows here, I’d like to know…As I have a way to create md3 with a free md3 compiler, but seeems it does not create the interpolation. So I yet don’t know if is that the freebie does not make it, or that the md3 format, doesn’t do that great md2 interpolation.

[quote]What’s the disadvantage of MD2? I mean if you suggest to use OBJ for static models, there’s something MD2 doesn’t cope?
[/quote]
well, even obj doesn’t do all either. Maybe x format will be better. I suppose textures are a huge waste in a java engine…maybe vertex colors are cheaper, and that’s not possible in an OBJ file. But anyway, I never liked vertex colors Its quality depends on hi res polycount…so…

md2 does not support vertex colors either.

But OBJ has better shading. And for the trembling, it’d be crazy to use md2 also for statics. Better md3 fo rthat matter , if want to avoid OBJ… :?

Another good format is truespace COB. It supports…smooth shading (like x and obj…and somehow md2) …vertex colors (like x) …quads (like OBJ.While these is non relevant to coders, is nice to some artists, but a nonsense, really) …textures, etc. But like 3ds, has some serious limits and problems with material names. (3ds also is limited to 65k tris or so.(think of a terrain mesh…) )

well, seems md3 supports interpolation…judging by a paragraph in this site, a viewer of md3 animations, made in java and gl4java.
http://md3view.fragland.net/about.html

linear and a smoother one…I suppose on what the final engine is able to support.

here’s a tutorial from an opengl place. It speaks about interpolation for the md3 format, so I guess it has it. Indeed, md3 has a better one, called slerp, as I mentioned.
http://www.gametutorials.com/Tutorials/OpenGL/OpenGL_Pg5.htm

definitely: it allows interpolation. I read in a indy game that they were gonna use single piece md3. If so, md3 would be a winner…
http://www.vagrantsoft.com/josh/downloads.html

I guess md3 has all my requests… But anyway, ading both md2 and md3, simply will support a bigger number of artists.

[quote]Well, Xith3d is the OpenSource high level 3d API for Java (similar to SUN’s frozen Java3d), whilst JOGL and LWJGL are low level 3d APIs. JOGL is “just” an OpenGL binding for Java, so that you can call OpenGL commands from within Java. Xith3d bases on JOGL.
The 3d loaders for Xith3d and JOGL/LWJGL don’t do the same in total, but parsing the 3d file format they all have to do. So I see some work being doubled which shoudln’t be.
Well, I’m just the teeboy, a Xith3d user, not a 3d loader developer. I am not good (yet?) at 3d…

Quote:
the more standard, the less problems later, and more re-usability of models/formats…

That should be the ultimate goal; however I’m still too new to 3d in order to start such a thing for Java 3d APIs. But I think I’ll start a thread in a parent forum.
[/quote]
good, I think this may come handy for more than one java developer…

[quote]There’s Embedded OpenGL, a sub-set of OpenGL intended for the mobile market. In case a JOGL for Embedded OpenGL would work with J2ME (the Micro-Edition of J2SE, Java2 Standard Edition), there could be 3d in Java for mobiles… Not sure about a high level 3d API like Xith3d, though.
Maybe we should ask that question in the JOGL forum?
[/quote]
Well, not actually needed…I have made a search, and seems already some games like tomb raider in very low resolutions have been working in certainnokia models…I suppose soon it will get more common…

[kevglass]

The MD2 format does not cause the trembling. There’s not reason I can think of that would cause the trembling other than bad engine implementation.

MD3 format is essentially 3 MD2s with transform relating them each to each other.

It would however, like you say, be crazy to use MD2 (or MD3 for that matter) for static models since you’d get a bunch of overhead describing the fact that it was effectively a single frame animation.

The MD2/MD3 format doesn’t enforce interpolation. Its an implementation detail. Both the MD2 loader and MD3 loader support interpolation. The MD2 loader at least also allows the developer to choose not to interpolate (which is cheaper at runtime).

Kev

[Orangy_Tang]

MD2 only uses chars as interpolation/animation values, so small, subtle animations suffer from this ‘trembling’ artifact. See also the Kingpin demo/game which suffers from the same problem (built on the Q2 engine).

[Bombadil]

Nice to see more experts joining the discussions.
3d file formats and bringing it to an engine is a science on its own…

We Java 3d fans really should join forces to reach some 3d file format standard for all 3d Java APIs. I’ve started a thread on “Shared Code” with a reference to here.

[snaga]

I had seen the trembling in a pair of engines…and in deep Exploration. Indeed, it didn’t happen with other formats.

Later i read people telling it happened so…

[quote]Both the MD2 loader and MD3 loader support interpolation
[/quote]
really good to know. I would not ever care to make an animation that’s not gonna be interpolated. Unless the coder lets me add a mesh per frame, which indeed would specially heavy, don’t know in performance, but sure in download…Also would force to refrain in frame number, and that makes animations robotic and a bit dumb…

So, finally seems md3 can do interpolation, and more likely, allows non-segmented models…

[quote] We Java 3d fans really should join forces to reach some 3d file format standard for all 3d Java APIs. I’ve started a thread on “Shared Code” with a reference to here.
[/quote]
You’ll all end up adding *.x format to open the door to max, lw and maya animation. I know. (after all, *.x works also in linux and other oses…I’ve been told)

Joke…

No, seriously, for a non hyper-optimized 3d performance, md3 and md2, plus obj for statics models, is quite good enough. At least for now, imho.

[yvg]

I really agree with snaga that .x support is very good to have, and this opens door for a lot of people (esp. designers) who initially targeted DirectX development.

Yuri

[Bombadil]

Since “X” is just a format and no “Winblows” (tm Jeff) “everywhere” I’ve no problem with a X loader for Xith3d - as long as it runs on all Java+OpenGL platforms and no worry to get sued for using it on Linux.
If we can use a modern 3d file format (*) with Xith then it’s great.

Most important thing would be to have some of the most popular formats working in a solid way with Xith…

Abies replied in the “Shared Code” thread and said it probably would be too difficult to have a loader standard base for all 3d Java APIs, and he’s right. Kevin thinks to, too. So let’s concentrate on Xith3d loaders. Maybe we could still harmonize the current and future Xith3d loaders so that they’re always useable in the same way.
The newst Xith CVS features - amongst other candies - Abie’s NormalGenerator if I read the CVS newsletter correctly. That’s nice.

(*) Please remember: Obj, 3ds, Ase, … have been frozen years ago, so no wonder there’s no multi-texturing and such.
To be fair: Lightwave is a modern format too, and it’s up to date. So a Lightwave format would be nice too - since all the well known converters could transform any format to Lightwave also

[snaga]

[quote]I really agree with snaga that .x support is very good to have, and this opens door for a lot of people (esp. designers) who initially targeted DirectX development.
[/quote]
There are bunchs of artists that just don’t have nothing to do with MS, but the fact is this is the only format that I have found in majority of packages, supporting the complexity of animation, and standard enough (yep, quite weird being MS…)

Did I made a list ? I’ll make a longer one now, and still will be leaving some out…is only of what I know…

-Maya (4,4.5, 5(all the latest)) (free plugin)

-Max (same here, 3, 4.x, 5.x, and specially good is 6 )(free)
-Lightwave(free plugin)

-Hash Animation Master (an excellent kind of independent animation software, loved by even many Maya pros)

-Truespace 6.6, (and 4 with a free plugin) with a coemrcial plugin

-Blender, right now static dx7 and dx8 export. Soon, animated one.(everything in Blender is free)

-Character Fx. Being only 15$, it has allowed doing very ready-to play character models. It exports as *.x version8, as well as md2, OBJs and 3DSs(like keyframe meshes), nebula device native code, Blitz3d engine b3d open format, Milkshape ascii format …

-Ultimate Unwrap 35$…supports lots of game formats, BSPs (of all types), allows opengl multitexturing, reflection, bumpmapping, etc, preview, and adding very complex materials. 2 UV channels, lightmaps…Animation conversions, import export perfectly of dx8.x *.x format, (throughly tested by me) , conection by free plugin (that any Max user can freely download) with 3ds Max, and most of all, is the best UV Mapping software out there.

-3d canvas. 34 or 70 $.native export as directx.

-Softimage XSI 3.5 (the great package for films, very few users out there, but is increasing as Halflife 2 is going to provide modders a version for modding, and the learning edition is less limited than Max and Maya ones) Again , free x plugin.

-Milkshape, has sveral free plugins to export. Sadly, Milkshape does not support weights.

-deled engine editor (map editor, static x export)

-zanooza modeller. free objects modeller, x export for objects.

-Metasequoia LE (free for non comercial) , excellent modeller, one of the best. *.x export.

Most of softwares do support the dx8 kind of *.x files. The keep quite a lot of compatibility, does not happens with other plugins.

Well, I have been browsing here a bit, and saw already md2, md3, OBJ are made. So…imho, a clever next step would be dx8. As far as i have seen , is readable by dx9 engines. Only see that for example, dx9 specification allows multitexturing of more texture layers, while dx8 is only two. But more than enough for human animated characters.You still can use, as often happens, a more empowered format for terrains and objects, like OBJ, or whatever (don’t know if OBJ allows that much multitexturing layers).

Dx8 *.x , I mean, with animation, spline or at least linear interpolation (spline interpolation supported by max and character fx, and surely for the others) , bones, weights (at least 3 bones that could affect a vertex at same time, but seing several engines adding support to 4. This would be seen in terms of java performance.) and animation.

Is not simple, but as mentioned, why not make a common effort for the several projects here?

I maintain that…you could use ase, obj, or x for objects or terrain, but there would quite less formats so much package (free or not) supported formats like this, with such a support for animation features like x has.

Formats that are common between packages are old ones, which even did not support bones… being *.x an exception. (indeed, the bones thing is from v8. v7 only supported hierarchies between linked body parts. Really worse…)

But the 8 version has been a while, and keeps being supported

[quote]Since “X” is just a format and no “Winblows” (tm Jeff) “everywhere” I’ve no problem with a X loader for
[/quote]
I’ve read in several parts that *.x file is open.
They also give away the dx SDK, after all.
Not to defend MS here. Just that the *.x format offers no problem.

[quote]Xith3d - as long as it runs on all Java+OpenGL platforms and no worry to get sued for using it on Linux.
[/quote]
At least know of a pair of several platforms (linux included) c++ engines using *.x files to load the character animations…

[quote]If we can use a modern 3d file format (*) with Xith then it’s great.
[/quote]
That I think, too. And seen so much advanced demos like reflections, shaders, bumps, etc…I think is more basic much more, the bones and weights type of animation.

[quote]Most important thing would be to have some of the most popular formats working in a solid way with Xith…
[/quote]
OBJ is way standard. It opens already to a load of artist modellers. 3ds picks the rest of them, if there were left any ASE will allow (if really preserving Max standards) the export of lights, etc, as ASE is a scene description format. But still will be closed to Max only, I suppose.
md2 and md3 will come very helpful for may situations, and still are good for animation, the trembling in md2 is not a nice thing to see, but…I prefer *.x, to be true.
Anyway, those could do.

You have more than enough formats. Indeed, OBJ and *.x maybe enough to cover almost everything imagined.

[quote]Abies replied in the “Shared Code” thread and said it probably would be too difficult to have a loader standard base for all 3d Java APIs, and he’s right. Kevin thinks to,
[/quote]
oh, I see.

[quote]too. So let’s concentrate on Xith3d loaders. Maybe we could still harmonize the current and future Xith3d loaders so that they’re always useable in the same way.
The newst Xith CVS features - amongst other candies - Abie’s NormalGenerator if I read the CVS newsletter correctly. That’s nice.

(*) Please remember: Obj, 3ds, Ase, … have been frozen years ago, so no wonder there’s no multi-texturing and such.
[/quote]
I haven’t actually look at this feature…
But most probably. Is a very usefull feature for terrains.
Not so much for characters. I only do a texture per characters. More realism I can get with simple bumps, speculars (supported both by *.x ) than with multitexturing, in a huma character.
That’s why I said *.x of dx8 may not be the best for terrains. Maybe dx9 yes, but again, I’d advice to keep to the most comaptible possible with packages… They are quite conservative also… (8 version is in all of them)

[quote]To be fair: Lightwave is a modern format too, and it’s up to date. So a Lightwave format would be nice too -
[/quote]
yep…though I so an statistics of user base of LW, and is way smaller compared with Max and Maya… An x export will give export of character bones and animations, for those 3 packages.

Most surely for scenery, I’d do other thing. Exporting multitexturing, lighting, cameras…often is ahuge problem…OBJ, etc, does not support them. Usually game companies make inhouse editors…maxscripts, etc…

Anyway, a very basic java editor, maybe better, to adjust lighting and cameras…or just do that by code.

I have to consult it, but maybe OBJ support multitexturing…it’d be perfect them…only lacking then vertex colors (*.cob supports them)
If *.x 2 levels of multitexturing is ok for you , go for them…

or well, maybe adding dx9 *.x (If I understood well, they read more layers of textures) support…in case *.x v8 files can be read ok , as that version is what packages are exporting…

[snaga]

An *.x to opengl traslator? Maybe of some help?

http://e.domaindlx.com/svenkatesh/gaming/x2glx/

hey!

for scene…terrain…have you thought on vrml 2.0 ??

"Hierarchical description of a scene. Bodies, materials, camera, transformations, lights. Newer versions have fog, animation, multimedia, sensors (triggers), grouped objects. "

I don’t know about multitexturing…

obj specs, dont know if up-to-date…
http://astronomy.swin.edu.au/~pbourke/geomformats/obj/

another…
http://www.dcs.ed.ac.uk/home/mxr/gfx/3d/OBJ.spec

3ds specs…
http://www.dcs.ed.ac.uk/home/mxr/gfx/3d/3DS.spec

Anyway, this can be useful to load skinned meshes (animations with bones and weights) in directx *.x format

http://www.neverengine.com/news/download/SkinMeshClass.zip

[kevglass]

I wonder if the Xj3D guys could be persuaded to port a version of their loader to Xith?

Justin/Alan, are you out there?

Kev

[aNt]

well xj3d would be cool- wonder if there reading this ;D

but *.x would be tip top also