Yea, your arguments were pretty dull, but I’m sure you’ll do better next time.
Such as? You say so because you so very much want to believe that any argument against Java is old, misguided and outdated.
I’ve mentioned Java’s lack of value semantics for objects. It tends to make people lower the abstraction level in time challanged code. So the idea that Java would be more high-level than C++ turns out to be wrong. In practice for efficiency reasons people tend to lower the abstraction. The problem can be relaxed by optimization techniques of the runtime system, but it’s still inherent to the language.
What about arrays in Java? You cannot turn off bounds-checking of arrays. This is a real disadvantage in “algoritm type” code. It’s another disadvantage inherent to the language. Java will never be able to scan an array as quickly as C++.
I could go on and on but in an environment like this where everybody wears blinkers it’s hardly meaningful. Everybody else knows that C++ is a modern language with many inherent advantages over Java. So dear OP, the above in combination with Java’s track-record of hype in combination with weak delivery, is why people hasn’t felt a desperate hurry to abandon C++ for Java.
I think many who are reluctant to Java are like me. We’re neither starry-eyed evangelists nor 15 year old geeks, just plain middle-aged engineers familiar with both Java and C++. We have experienced the development of Java firsthand since its birth. And I can honestly say that’s it not until now with version 6 I feel fully confident in Java on the desktop and would recommend it to a friend.
Wow, an ignorant fool. 
I was having such fun with the pointless micro optimisations until then.
Good luck with the hate, and all that. slips out of thread
You’re a moron. I’m neither an evangelist nor 15 years old. I’m 35 years old, I’ve been coding since I was 15. I know Java, C, C++ like the back of my hand and countless other languages (LISP, C#, Asm68k, Delphi, BASIC, ADA, Pascal, Python… and probably a few more I forgot). Java is a very good language in general and plenty fast enough for games. You are the misguided fanboy when you come in and start spouting utter rubbish like that crap about bounds checking - I benchmarked a bunch of array thrashing tasks back at Java 1.3 (versus MS visual C++) and even then the performance was pretty much identical.
Your “everyone knows” argument is what I’d expect of a troll. I have actually benchmarked Java versus C++. I have actually written an Open GL gameloop in C++ and ported the code to Java for exactly the same performance. Unlike your pulled-out-of-your-arse opinion, I have actualy done the work, written the code and benchmarked the buggers. And I can tell you that you are full of shit.
speed gets totally unimportant, when something like printing a variable to standart out modifies a variable in your code behind your back and your code then simply stops working!!!
I know this is the case, because when I comment out the line that says something like:
cout << a<<endl;
It starts working!!!
a is of type long long (don’t tell me you can’t print long long to cout!), so even if I do
long long b = a;
cout << b <<endl;
it still does not work. It ofcourse prints the correct value of a or b, also if I print both.
Not working fast C++ code is much more useless as extremely slow Java code. (Java is not slow, but I don’t want to start with that again).
System.out.println() never does such a crap!!!
C++ is not only outdated, it is also crap!
PS: Don’t tell my I’m a C++ n00b or something like that (even if it might be true), but even n00bs shouldn’t be able to get such errors!
This thread made me chuckel quite a few times, thanks for the entertainment .uj.
Just one thing to add:
Yet they have felt the need to go to C#, what an amazement. And if your brain is just a little bigger than a peanut, you’ll realise how closely related C# is to Java.
DP
I don’t care if you’ve programmed since before conception. Your arguments are weak. Your benchmarks only test your own abilities as a programmer and you obviously aren’t as good as you think. Even a moron could easily manage to get say a matrix multiply microbenchmark in C++ to perform like 10 to 30 percent better than Java. Even a moron could easily get OpenGL to perform like 10 percent faster using C++ than the same code written in Java.
I suggest you modify your attitude a notch. Nobody buys arguments based on - I did this and I did that and what I found is the ultimate truth because I’m so god damn good I can hardly believe it myself and everybody who thinks otherwise is a troll. You’re oozing of low credibility. You couldn’t even convince Gosling that Java is better than C++. ;D
[quote=“uj11,post:182,topic:26008”]
:o
no wait, let’s go like this:
[quote=“uj11,post:182,topic:26008”]
forget about java, c++ and all that, your argument doesn’t make sence in any possible way.
[quote=“uj11,post:182,topic:26008”]
Who am I to say your wrong, however I do wonder how you rhyme it with your ‘arguments’ and what barign they have of version 6 what they actually have to do with desktop specific things? perhaps I’m the only one seeing a contradiction here.
Well, a moron or not, the funny thing is that a 10% slowdown in 1 thing, will rarely drop the whole engine-speed 10%.
Even a performance-drop of 10% for a whole engine, is perfectly acceptable IMHO, if your development-time is cut in half, and even a “moron” can code it.
That may sound like me being a moron in your ears (I bet it does), but would you notice the difference between 60 and 54fps? I wouldn’t care less.
Here is an article from an avid C++/Windows programmer. (Owns his own successful software company)
[quote]In general, I have to admit that I’m a little bit scared of language features that hide things. When you see the code
i = j * 5;
… in C you know, at least, that j is being multiplied by five and the results stored in i.
But if you see that same snippet of code in C++, you don’t know anything. Nothing. The only way to know what’s really happening in C++ is to find out what types i and j are, something which might be declared somewhere altogether else. That’s because j might be of a type that has operator* overloaded and it does something terribly witty when you try to multiply it. And i might be of a type that has operator= overloaded, and the types might not be compatible so an automatic type coercion function might end up being called. And the only way to find out is not only to check the type of the variables, but to find the code that implements that type, and God help you if there’s inheritance somewhere, because now you have to traipse all the way up the class hierarchy all by yourself trying to find where that code really is, and if there’s polymorphism somewhere, you’re really in trouble because it’s not enough to know what type i and j are declared, you have to know what type they are right now, which might involve inspecting an arbitrary amount of code and you can never really be sure if you’ve looked everywhere thanks to the halting problem (phew!).
[/quote]
From this article: http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/Wrong.html
Here is another one on memory management:
[quote]That opens another whole can of worms: memory allocators. Do you know how malloc works? The nature of malloc is that it has a long linked list of available blocks of memory called the free chain. When you call malloc, it walks the linked list looking for a block of memory that is big enough for your request. Then it cuts that block into two blocks – one the size you asked for, the other with the extra bytes, and gives you the block you asked for, and puts the leftover block (if any) back into the linked list. When you call free, it adds the block you freed onto the free chain. Eventually, the free chain gets chopped up into little pieces and you ask for a big piece and there are no big pieces available the size you want. So malloc calls a timeout and starts rummaging around the free chain, sorting things out, and merging adjacent small free blocks into larger blocks. This takes 3 1/2 days. The end result of all this mess is that the performance characteristic of malloc is that it’s never very fast (it always walks the free chain), and sometimes, unpredictably, it’s shockingly slow while it cleans up. (This is, incidentally, the same performance characteristic of garbage collected systems, surprise surprise, so all the claims people make about how garbage collection imposes a performance penalty are not entirely true, since typical malloc implementations had the same kind of performance penalty, albeit milder.)
[/quote]
Article: http://www.joelonsoftware.com/printerFriendly/articles/fog0000000319.html
Yes, a moron would use immediate mode. But this is sorta off topic, isnt it?
Then I suggest this moron go out and actually PROVE one of his dozens of unsubstantiated claims, since he claims he can.
And in the meantime I seriously suggest the rest of us stop feeding this idiot child the negative attention he is so obviously trolling for,.
While Joel writes interesting articles and I like to think they make sense a lot of the time, his “successful software company” produces some really shitty software… so when Joel says something, I tend to use that fact to put what he says in perspective.
The example quoted applies to any language where the programmer does something stupid. For example:
class StupidMath {
static int add(int a, int b) {
return a - b;
}
}
...
int i = StupidMath.add(j,k);
Hmm. seems Java can be just as dumb. The extension to operator overloading does add some risk… but it isn’t a problem in the “real world” because only poor programmers would do something so dumb, and if you are dealing with code done by such a programmer then THAT is just a tiny issue in the big picture
Yes, C++ seemed to really push it when they overloaded the shift operators to do I/O :)… but how many C++ coders really run into problems?
Anyway, there is no sense arguing with .uj because she doesn’t understand when her argument has been defeated (hint: several pages back). It’s like trying to fight a war against suicide bombers… when the enemy blows themselves up… they just aren’t playing the same game
Sadly, her strategy is not uncommon… the whole group she represents is destined for a Darwin award.
whoa! Carm down people!
When did this thread become so full of hate :S
[quote]When did this thread become so full of hate :S
[/quote]
When .uj started trolling it back down from something quite interesting into the same tired and pointless argument that everyone who cares about it has already been through numerous times. The Java vs C++ argument continues to be an irrelevance. It will not stop being one.
just let it die, don’t reply the topic anymore, doh i just replied ;D
I’ve probably been coding C longer than you’ve been alive. I KNOW how to make it go fast.
If you think Java/OpenGL is so much slower that C++/OpenGL then why done you code a comparsion, provide the source code and prove it. Or are you just full of hot air? (and yes, I know that’s a rhetorical question because clearly you are too chickenshit to put up)
The difference is that in java you see “a.add(b)” but in C++ you see “a + b”. In the former, you 100% know that a method call is occuring, with the latter, you don’t know without trawling the code. As you say, there’s no helping stupidity (.uj proves that) but a language in which you can read a line of code and see what’s happening is clearly better than one where you read the line of code and have to know the rest of the code base to understand it.
When .uj started trolling it back down from something quite interesting into the same tired and pointless argument that everyone who cares about it has already been through numerous times. The Java vs C++ argument continues to be an irrelevance. It will not stop being one.
[/quote]
+100
But I think it long ago pased the point of pointlessness and thus is best just abandoned.
** wishing he hadnt done away with “Land of the Trolls” **
JK