[quote]well, you could count ‘ctrl-f’ and ‘alt-a’ as 2 keystrokes each … ;D
[/quote]
But then “/” counts as two keystrokes, too. Well, at least on some keyboards like mine. ;D
The way I type its a good few key strokes ;D
Endolf
[quote]I think there’s some benefit to having everything in one place as opposed to scanning a dialogue…
[/quote]
I wont’ ignore that one since it is really related to why vi is obsolete. You say having everything in one place… but what is that place? Your head? The thing that is a usability issue with VI is that there is ONLY one place, no matter what you are dealing with. If the command has 10 args you have to put them on one line, in a precisely formatted order with no assistance from the software. That’s a step backward if you ask me.
I’m all for efficient interfaces, but they can be done without the absence of clarity and simple reminders that a proper GUI offers. right out of the box VI fights against the non-expert usr when it doesn’t have to. Start up VI and start typing… what happens? nothing you haven’t gone into a proper editing MODE yet… there will be no error message, just the occasional beep, and possibly a cryptic message at the bottom of the window. That is useless and stupid to put it bluntly. VI should be in insert mode all the time unless you have activated some other command. Other examples… move to the start of the line in VI - “^” - a non-sense character that only major nerds (like us) would have any hope of coming up with. In almost every other editor on the planet “Home” or “CTRL left arrow” or something quite intuitive gets you want you want. VI works… it just has an interface that was based on old tech and even then some choices seem pretty bad. Now VIM (Vi - IMproved) has likely corrected a lot of the brain-dead issues like that, I’m just pointing out the original vi behavior for the sake of the argument :).
Regular expressions and a ‘repeat action’ key-stroke are not exclusive to VI. You can have the best of both worlds in this case. That’s all I’m saying.
Of course this has nothing to do with CD’s being “IN”… but sometimes it’s fun to rant 
[quote]Let me demonstrate…
jEdit:
CTRL-f (1)
days (4)
TAB (1)
weeks (5)
ALT-a (1)
Esc (1)
Total keystrokes = 13
vi:
s (1)
/ (1)
days (4)
/ (1)
weeks (5)
(1)
Total keystrokes = 13
maybe +1 if you had to hit Esc to get into the bogus ‘command mode’ from insert mode or something.
So I stand by my statement. The vi interface offers no value and only serves to obscure. the only good thing about it is that it is still around for people that had the misfortune of memorizing the ridiculous manner in which it works - for them it is good because they know how to use it and can therefore use it faster than something that they are less familiar with.
Er… sorry about the threadjack though.
[/quote]
TextPad:
F8 (1) (P.S. notice the regular expressions check box ;))
days (4)
TAB (1)
weeks (5)
click ‘Replace All’ (1)
Sorry, I couldn’t resist ;D
[quote]If the command has 10 args you have to put them on one line, in a precisely formatted order with no assistance from the software. That’s a step backward if you ask me.
[/quote]
Off the top of my head I can’t think of any 10-argument commands I’d want to issue from Vim. But assuming such an item, yes, putting them in one line isn’t a good idea.
But Vim commands generally only consist of a scope (e.g. %), an expression (e.g. /days/weeks/) and modifiers (e.g. g); three items are really easy to scan in one line.
There’s a whole “GUI vs string of characters” analysis that could be covered here, but I think it would just complicate matters. Maybe we should dedicate a thread to it?
[quote]Start up VI and start typing… what happens? nothing you haven’t gone into a proper editing MODE yet… there will be no error message, just the occasional beep, and possibly a cryptic message at the bottom of the window.
[/quote]
Is it too much to ask that the user knows how to use their software? You don’t move a cursor by tipping the screen, you don’t use network shares under Windows 98 for a few minutes after boot, you don’t assume that someone got your email just because the mail program said “mail sent sucessfully”. Being a competent user of your computer you know how to make it work. Is pressing “i” before typing really that much hassle for you? It’s really second nature on starting Vim - after the first week or so of using it, I’ve never made that mistake again. I suppose I could put it in an autocommand when the editor boots, but it’s only one keypress. shrug
[quote]Other examples… move to the start of the line in VI - “^” - a non-sense character that only major nerds (like us) would have any hope of coming up with. In almost every other editor on the planet “Home” or “CTRL left arrow” or something quite intuitive gets you want you want.
[/quote]
I press Home, and it works for me. Yes, could also press “^” to go to the first non-whitespace character, or “0” to go to the first character of any kind. But Home works as well. I think you’d be surprised how Vim works out of the box these days - it works pretty much like every other editor. CTRL-C, CTRL-Z, Home, SHIFT+DOWN - it’s all there.
And anyway, your example of CTRL-Left being a “quite intuitive” way of going to the start of the line is an odd one - I expect you’ll find that will actually go to the start of the previous word. Which also works in Vim, by the way.
[quote]Now VIM (Vi - IMproved) has likely corrected a lot of the brain-dead issues like that, I’m just pointing out the original vi behavior for the sake of the argument :).
[/quote]
Ah, now I see! Then for the sake of the argument I request that you base your examples on a 30 year old GUI text editor. 
But I see you haven’t made the mistake of claiming that you don’t need the power that Vim provides! A pity, it’s always so amusing to argue that point… ;D
[quote]weeks (5)
click ‘Replace All’ (1)
[/quote]
Whoops! Did you remove your right hand from the keyboard and grope blindly for the mouse in the middle there? ;D
Well let’s assume he can replace that with TAB TAB TAB… SPACE if he had to.
oh, and people are still using the original VI and spouting off how wonderful it is. The whole point of me saying it is obsolete IS based on it being 30 years old with no GUI. But it is the MODAL nature of it that I find unnecessary and counter intuitive.
[quote]Well let’s assume he can replace that with TAB TAB TAB… SPACE if he had to.
[/quote]
Whoops, there goes the key count… ;D
[quote]But it is the MODAL nature of it that I find unnecessary and counter intuitive.
[/quote]
Well, I’ve got no problem with it at all. Riding a bike is counter-intuitive at first, but then you get used to it and never have a problem again. Vim uses the modal system to allow much more flexibility in commands - i.e. you aren’t restricted to using combinations of keys to perform actions. After the first couple of days of using it, it becomes second nature, and you’ll never have a problem again.
Many things in computer interface design only seem intuitive because that’s the way everyone does it. Take a look at the desktop metaphor - it’s horribly broken in myriad ways. If anyone approached it as a desktop, they’d quickly lose all their data and get totally confused. It’s only because people approach the desktop metaphor as the desktop metaphor that they can get things done.
If you approach Vim as Vim, i.e. as a mode-based text processing tool, you’ll have no problems with it.
Well, yeah! I kinda got used to using the mouse these days you know ;D
Alt-A works too though.
[quote] Vim uses the modal system to allow much more flexibility in commands - i.e. you aren’t restricted to using combinations of keys to perform actions. After the first couple of days of using it, it becomes second nature, and you’ll never have a problem again.
Many things in computer interface design only seem intuitive because that’s the way everyone does it.
[/quote]
Using a “key combination”, i.e. a simply qualifier key like CTRL to start an action and have it automatically fall back into insert mode when that action is over, to me is far LESS restrictive than the current way command vs. insert mode works.
There is also something to be said for familiarity. Yes it IS intuitive because what you have learned for one tool you can apply to another. There is no need to learn more, and that makes things easier.
You are correct that you can get used to anything. But why should you have to. VI is like a bicycle that works different from all the others. Sure learning to use the bicycle was a little awkward at first. Once you learn how, you can hop on your friends bike and ride it just as well. So I DO find fault with VI for being different without any benefit.
I lie in bed at night dreaming that someday this will make it into vim as standard…
…well, not quite, but it would IMHO make such a huge positive differences to the lives of all who ever have to do a small bit of admin or use a unix machine for a little while a whole lot easier…
(nb: the only reason I learned VI was as cited above by someone else: you can guarantee (almost!) access to it on every unix machine you ever need to use. Since many of us only use unix machines intermittently - e.g. just to reset a crashed server, or to alter a MySQL DB on a webhost, or to run some specialized unix-only network-diagnostic tool etc - it’s very useful to have some editor that:
- you only need to remember 4 commands to be able to use completely
- is always installed everywhere
FYI, the only 4 I knew for the first 2 years (I used others, but not frequently enough to memorize them!): escape and insert to change mode, “:w” to save and “:q” to quit.)
FWIW, there is at least one much better text editor for *nix which is about the same sort of size as VI (i.e. counted in 10’s of kb, not megabytes like VIM) and which any idiot can use.
Sadly, it is not widely installed, and I don’t even know it’s name! I found it on a “linux one-floppy router OS” that you can plug into any PC, boot, and have a working router + internet dialup + DHCP + DNS. (you have to run a program that generates the floppy for your particular hardware + ISP password etc). This editor has:
- menus using F keys, none of that Emacs sh**
- normal key bindings, including things like CTRL-Q for quit, CTRL-S for save, etc
- none of the confusion of multi-mode!
Perhaps someone here knows what it is? ???
But…the big thing about VI is that it’s installed everywhere, and VIM almost everywhere, and until something else is installed as widely as is as simple, VI(m) will always be with us…
Was it “pico” ?
Pico is cute. I used Pico before joining a company that required the use of Vim (the early days of web consultancy - we had no version control, just Vim’s file locking feature to avoid concurrent changes… :-X)
Pico is a good bare-bones editor, with a few extra features to make things easier for the user. I seem to recall CTRL-W deleted the last word, and CTRL-K deleted the current line?
In a desperate attempt to direct this conversation back on topic:
Has anyone received their CDs yet?
not me, yet
me neither.
Nothing here (I’m in Canada) either.
2, ;D, HOME, and BackSpace.
Back to the subject, what do those CD’s contain?
EDIT: I mistyped what you said, you said ALL blank lines, so i guess that wont be true.