Altering that JRE license to my own ends

General Discussions
#61

This is going to sound a bit short, and perhaps a bit rude. If you want to compete in a serious way using Java:

(1) Distribute on CD
(2) A line from GDC “Build Better Games”

I want to see Java games succeed. However, I’ve yet to see enough finished, polished games that are worth all this arguing. I have to say thank you to the people that are doing (and have done) their best to accomplish this. Thank you to Sun and the GTG. What we need is 500 finished, polished games that are worth all this arguing, which will help breed a reputation for something other than applets. “Build better games. Build better games. Build better games.”

I believe the quality that is required is possible - but we’re not making believers out of many people. “Installation program” makers are out there. The top 15 games in Java I’ve seen would be difficult to sell to just about anyone for more than $10 USD.

#62

I largely agree with kul_th_las’ statement although ‘$10’ is a facetious figure. My own game, which is far from ‘AAA’ quality, is converting at around 1% which is entirely acceptable, and it’s selling for $20. And Tribal Trouble, when it’s released, looks set to be the dog’s danglies. TT does appear to be the only other serious game in development from board participants in these parts that is likely to be released this year.

I would like ChrisM and a couple of other guest members from the GTG to a moderated discussion in the Dexterity forums, which have over the last year become the nexus for discussion of independent game development. There are a lot of developers in there, most of them professional. But I’m the only Java developer. So I think it would be productive if some of those guys had a chat with Chris about why they’re not interested in Java.

Cas :slight_smile:

#63

Let me clarify a bit. Not every game on the Java Top 15 is worth $10.

#64

You actually know of 15 games???

Cas :slight_smile:

#65

I do. I play them on pogo and shockwave.com.

#66

Ohh, those sorts of games.

Now, don’t all rush at once and just carry on a thread war over there but I have started a thread on Dexterity.com in which some professionals will hopefully post some useful insights.

It would be most excellent if a Sun representative would chime in with their 2c.

Cas :slight_smile:

#67

I’m sorry, but an argument was made that I’ve seen a lot on these boards and I have to refute it. I’m speaking of this from kul_th_las’ most recent post:

Yes, it is true that 500 released games that all require the JRE would engender the notion amoung game players that it’s good to have the JRE installed. So, who wants to be first?

And there’s the problem. Nobody wants to be first. Nobody wants to write a game that requires the JRE to be downloaded and isntalled separately, and for good reason. The large games aren’t worried about an extra 15 MB of bloat, and thus they are encouraged to wrap a distro of the JRE into their installer. And therefore the end user is blissfully unaware that he’s even using java.

And those of us writing smaller games? Well, we can’t handle 15 MB of extra download. And thus we’re either scared away from Java altogether, or we use stuff like Jet that even further obscures the fact that we use Java.

Sure, in either case the author could shout to the moon that he uses Java, even put the logo on every screen of the game. But if the end user didn’t need to separately download and install the JRE, he’s not going to associate the JRE with that thing that makes all these cool games work. But conversly, nobody wants to be the first game to force someone to separately download the JRE, because as we all know, the more clicks between the user and playing the game, the less likely he is to get to the end.

Paul

#68

…but it doesn’t help that no-one’s been collating them (ahem. I don’t include crappy geocities pages that have 5 thousand adverts and are including random content, e.g. “lots of free java games”, just to drive hits to make a quick buck).

http://grexengine.com/sections/externalgames/ (in case you missed it)

I won’t do it for a while yet, but ultimately I would like to de-list all non-webstart games (it’s fine to have webstart AND non-webstart versions, a la puppygames, but the important thing is there has to be a webstart version…); I won’t just ignore them, but I’ll move them all to a separate page (the one for inferior games ;)).

The idea is to do a couple of things

[] every java games developer - hobbyist, amateur, professional - should be able to include their game
[] Once you’ve played one of these games, all the rest are guaranteed to be a fairly small download…a whole page of webstartable games can fundamentally change the download problem (assuming each game gets significant traffic from the page)
[] A convenient page to point people to if they say “you can’t write good games in java”
[] Free publicity and exposure for all java games developers. Ultimately I’d like to include some kind of ranking system e.g. most-popular, etc.
[*] Make it easier for everyone here to see what each other is up to

#69

I like were you are going with this Blah…

I think that page should be linked from the java.net community page. A place where newbies will find it. Actually Java.com is where it really needs to be. A gallery of good Web Start-able games seems perfect for Java.com, What they have so far isn’t all that impressive, in terms of number of offerings.

#70

Perhaps the real anomaly here is that we are allowed to embed a complete JRE and hide it in some dark forgotten corner of the users disk system. Would it perhaps be better if there were only public JREs (from Sun anyway) and that the reasons why using a private copy is currently desirable were addressed.
(The technical issues should be in a separate thread). Now this may still mean different applications installing separate versions (because backward compatibility isn’t perfect), but at least if there is already one copy of 1.4.2_03 there would be no need for another.

#71

> xyzzy
You can’t do that here.

Well, sadly to say for Sun in this case, AF will be returning to Jetting. Concept proved, idea rejected, opportunity gone. No doubt it the issue will resurface…

It’ll shrink my game by 20% and make it faster too so it’s not like it’s a big loss for me, and it’s a neat coup for Excelsior, and more egg/face interface for the GTG :smiley:

Cas :slight_smile:

#72

Well, personally, I don’t believe that web-start is really the way to go. When I investigated it, I was quite horrified to discover that one needs to digitally sign the jars for it to work. Having a good bit of professional experience in cyrptography and PKI, I know that the requirements to get a real code signing certificate are beyond most indie developers. Thus we are stuck using a self-signed certificate, which I will point out leaves you with a dialog box that explicitly states:

“It is highly recommended not to install and run this code.”

Do you really want your users exposed to that? Honestly, I think a downloaded, self-executing jar (possibly wrapped with an installer that makes shortcuts that are platform appropriate) is much preferable.

But more to the point, I’m with Cas here. I’m using Jet now, and will continue to do so in the future. And while I might try also distributing a self-executable jar for the Linux/Mac users, I will certainly not be creating a web-start version.

Paul

#73

Has anyone considered using a Non-Sun JVM that is smaller, open source and you can pick and choose what you want to ship (and tinker with the JVM itself if you wanted)?

http://www.sablevm.org/

#74

Yes, I have. In fact, here’s a great listing of a lot of them:

http://joeq.sourceforge.net/other_os_java.htm

The problem I had was the need for fast blitting. This narrows the choice to VM’s that support Java 1.4, to either make use of BufferStrategy objects, or to use LWJGL which requires the nio package. So far, I have yet to see any VM that supports Java 1.4.

Paul

#75

[quote]I like were you are going with this Blah…

I think that page should be linked from the java.net community page. A place where newbies will find it. Actually Java.com is where it really needs to be. A gallery of good Web Start-able games seems perfect for Java.com, What they have so far isn’t all that impressive, in terms of number of offerings.
[/quote]
Currently working on something along these lines for Java.Com

#76

[quote]I like were you are going with this Blah…

I think that page should be linked from the java.net community page. A place where newbies will find it. Actually Java.com is where it really needs to be. A gallery of good Web Start-able games seems perfect for Java.com, What they have so far isn’t all that impressive, in terms of number of offerings.
[/quote]
I’m working on the basis that if I suggest it to the GTG, nothing will happen even if they liked the idea. So I’m doing it myself, and at some point if they decide they like it and find the relevant people in Sun who have to be persuaded I’ll happily talk to said relevant people. Eventually there might be a point where the GTG’s efforts manage to get the rest of Sun to decide “hey, this is a good idea!”, and then we could migrate it all onto java.com.

In the meantime, in the real world, I’m not waiting. If the GTG like it I’m sure this way is easier for them anyway (gives them ammo to persuade people in Sun, “Hey, look, someone’s doing this anyway…wouldn’t you prefer to have this in-house?” tends to work wonders especially when talking to corporate marketing people) so I assume they’ll have no complaints.

Just so long as they don’t do it in parallel secretly (because they’re not allowed to tell us they’re doing it) and make me feel like I’ve wasted my time…:wink:

#77

Ah. Exactly.

EDIT: Athomas if you have anything to add please reply in the original thread:

http://www.java-gaming.org/cgi-bin/JGNetForums/YaBB.cgi?board=Announcements;action=display;num=1077469870;start=0#5

#78

The free VMs usually support features from different versions of Java. That means although none of them supports Java 1.2 fully, they have 1.4 features implemented. I think gcj has some NIO stuff in it, so it could be worth a try.

#79

[quote]I know that the requirements to get a real code signing certificate are beyond most indie developers.
[/quote]
It doesn’t look that hard although this may depend on your country. As far as I can see, an off the shelf Ltd company (~£100) will suffice in the UK although you may be able to get away with a lesser “organisation” (e.g. a partnership). The certificate itself will then be $200/year (from thawte.com). If you are doing business then these are hardly significant obstacles.

#80

Well there you go - and it’s not being done ‘in secret’. Excellent.